90g tank with shy loaches

[betta blue]

Thank you Diane! I still need to address my plant situation in the 90 gal. and appreciate your information. I have one fluorsecent tube (my fixture only holds one tube?) at 40 watts in my tank...it's a "cool" lamp. It's quite bright for the fish...but I'm now introducing "floaters" that I assume will reduce the light flow to the corksrews, amazon swords, java fern and a couple of plants I'm not sure what they are. I just found out about Excel Flourish and am now putting them into my tanks. I used fertizer sticks for most of the plants but now I'm thinking of doing the flourish tablets (haven't yet). After reading a lot of stuff on plants, I was worried that with the fertilizer tubes per plant, I may have put too many irons, etc. into the tank. I have BBA in one of my 5 gal. tanks. It's not hurting my 2 dwarf frogs nor my female Betta in that tank, but as of two days ago, I've started to double dose with the Excel Flourish in that tank. Only a couple of days, have I been dosing the water in the other tanks with the normal dosage. I don't do CO2 so this chemical made sense to me. Thank you...yes I need to keep the plants alive...they do a job in all my tanks. I've tried to research a bit on plants but it feels overwhelming at this point. I need to do more research but more importantly, any info you can give me would be wonderful!

Thx,
Shar

[shari2]

regarding adding the yoyos - in the past I've had yoyos and clowns together with no problems. they all started out at around the same size, but the yoyo's grew more quickly. your mileage may vary on this, however. others have mentioned problems and with yours so little, it may be wise to wait till you find a larger clown to help them feel more secure. ?

Currently, I have one of each that are always together. Been together for years (got them from JD a little while back-he calls them the 'cronies'). they do the bodyslap thing in their 'apartment' (a hollow under a rock and bogwood) but the clown will also follow the yoyo around like a little puppy. It's funny.

regarding angelfish and clowns - they do like the same temp/ph water but angels need an area of the tank that is relatively open with not too much flow. I've kept (and still am keeping) them together. As for their dither effect? When I removed the solo b*st*rd angelfish from the tank with the little clowns the clowns retired. They are not nearly as up front or fearless as they were before. At the moment there are only 3 little clowns and a synodontis catfish in the tank. The clowns are invisible most of the time so I have a tank that looks like an empty planted tank until the food goes in. They do swim around more at dawn and dusk and are more active when the lights are out, but not nearly as interactive as they were when the angel was in the tank. His fearlessness of me seemed to rub off on them. They used to come up to my hand to eat bloodworms, etc. No way will they do that now.

Angel's are food pigs. They come up to the front of the tank to greet you as soon as they can see you and will beg pathetically for food for as long as you are within site. They can be aggressive with each other, but are less so with other fish (usually) unless they are breeding and defending eggs/fry/territory.

Clowns/yoyos will sometimes whisker the angels, but they can generally hold their own. Recently, I have noticed that the b*st*rd angel who i moved to the tank with the cronies had a hunk of the top of his dorsal fin disappear. It's growing out nicely now, but I think I'd put that down to the SAE, since the cronies swim with him, the rostrata avoid him and he's the only one that seems 'interested' in the angel in any - shall we say - personal way. It also looked suspiciously like an SAE mouth sized bite!

All that to say that if your tank qualifies, in my experience, angels will work with clowns. They do get taller rather than longer and need height in the tank, more than length. They are stately, slow moving, interact with you and will eat out of your hands. They can also live a long time. They'd appreciate some large leafed plants or smooth bogwood. The only problem is getting a congenial group. They have definite personalities and range from uber aggressive to timid. Depending on what you end up with you should be prepared for a possible need to separate one or more.

For breeding purposes, it's recommended to get a group of six juveniles and grow them till they start to pair off. If you get three, and get lucky with all the same sex, you may have a happy group. If you get three and have one pair, the third man out will need a different home.

It's also possible to get one especially appealing one that you fall in love with and just enjoy him.

Really, in your case I'd get me a nice sized group (a dozen or two) of schooling tetras. Set up a tank to use as a qtank for them and hope that many make it through. Some tetras that are commonly available are cardinals, neons, or glowlight tetras (Hemigrammus erythrozonus).

I've had all three and enjoyed the glowlights the best. The picture below show the stripe as bright red. It really is most often more of an orange color.



They seem to behave more like a family group, aren't as timid or nervous as the cardinals seemed to be, and in my case, were much hardier than the neons. Mine traveled all over the tank (though did not spend a lot of time near the top) and lived a long time (for tetras). They even bred in the tank. (the cardinals did also, but I've read they are difficult to acclimate- I didn't know this at the time when I got my 8 and guess I just got lucky that I didn't lose any)

A site with some info on various tetras :
http://www.timstropicals.com/Freshwater ... /index.asp

[betta blue]

Thank you Shari! As you've heard from me before, been a bit of a challenge with my clowns...but they've all survived so far counting shadows in the dark. I'm finally taking more time out to read before introducing fish. As you heard in the past, I consider my ten gal. betta tank as a hospital tank. That means I can't put fish that nip the fins of a betta. Appreciate I should have a tank especially for it...but I know worse case scenario, that I can put my lovely betta into a small tank for a short time. I am aware that I can put a bigger tank where my 2 - 10 gal. are side by side. Though I could put a 48in length tank in their spot, it could only be a maximum of 18 in. high and 18in. wide...not easy to find as a "used" tank and though I bought four tanks from retail...with the cost of it all, will only do a used tank now.

Worried about neon tetras cause they nip fins...that reduces my alternatives for other fish there. The tetras you mentioned on the site you recommended say they are at the bottom. I need mid to top fish. Still not sure about the black and white skirted tetras...will check the internet more on them. Sound like neither are injected with dye.

Though I spent $15 on hornwort to be a surface plant...looks like I need more and more upseting, after my first water change I got a lot of it plugging the vacuum cleaner. I've checked three aquarium places for floating plants and it was the only one I found.

I'm starting to go more towards Angels. I'm worried about they piggy state for food with shy clowns. I've watched my glass catfish that finally said enough with the yo yo's and are starting to be more aggressive for food. Will that happen with the clowns too, if the angels are eating all the food?

My other 4 community tanks are fine and everyone lives happily together. I just want my 90 gal. to be the same.

Also plan on picking up whatever fish I need to get my clowns active before getting African Butterflies. One baby step at a time...Bill Murray's film. I guess I will buy more hornwort first and then pick up the larger clown...just thinking that my guys are still growing and will be where the $40 one is in about 6 or so months...honestly, after watching the pl*c's growth and the yoyo's, these clowns are growing very slow...I just don't want to get too many of them cause they only have the 90gal. to live in. Can you understand my concerns? I don't overload tanks.

Thx,
Shar

[Tinman]

I think Tinman (the fish ) eats about $15 a week in worms. I could ahe this completely wrong, maybe it was $3. Hopefully Tinman will pop up.

This is a Clown Knife or featherback here and it is 15.00 a week. Black Ghosts Knifes are very cool but have issues with tankmates and are finnicky. I did have one many years ago and they can get large say 12-18" but eat slow so dithers are an issue. I belive they are live food only but would probably take shrimp crushed,not brine.Very cool but needs to be researched. Wonderful fish though.

I think big Clown to rile them up still. So many decisions for you ......

[betta blue]

Thanks Tinman! Regretfully, it doesn't sound like the BGK would do well into my tank. But, as I said, my husband was impressed with them so who knows...maybe I can get another big tank . And we won't tell him how much they cost to eat Thx for the info.

Shar

[Gary Stanton]

I kind of like Shari's suggestion of getting tetras. If you are serious about angels I would get two or three small ones and get a few more clowns.
My clowns(15) come to the front of the tank whenever I walk by, they are real beggars. I can put my face right next to the tank and they come right up to check me out. One yellow african cichlid was the dither that brought them out of hiding. I also put seven Tiger Barbs and now there are four, their dither effect is debatable.
Its the activity in the tank that brings the clowns out and the more clowns the safer they feel. I don't think the angels would harm the clowns, they might harm each other though. I'm all for more clowns and tetras sure are active.

[betta blue]

Thanks Gary! When I had the two clowns in the 10 gal. they were very personable. When I put them into the 90 gal., they were intially a "pair" and gave my Pl*c and twig catfish reasons to get out and swim around. It was great. But now, all the clowns are in hiding...maybe I have too many hiding spots. Since then. Pl*c is lethargic as well as the twig. You mentioned activity...guess I'm going to buy the bigger clown...not much bigger than my 4 but maybe that will be my first step. Afraid I'm still thinking angels. You mentioned the angels hurting each other? Can you elaborate. As I've said, first I think I need to buy some more hornwort for the top as the floater plant...think I could pick up the bigger clown in the interim. That gives me about two weeks to figure out what other fish. There are so many tetras out there...just don't want the fin nippers. Sure appreciate the input.

Thank you,
Shar

[shari2]

Angels are cichlids, and like many, can be quite aggressive towards one another. They will charge each other, bash into sides, and often aim for the eyes. There have been split fins, damaged scales, and even one blinding among the angels I've kept over the years (the b*st*rd angel whom I still have, solo). I trade the fry for fish store credit when I am breeding them, too.

A pair gotten as juveniles may be your best bet. As they grow up they will be used to each other and even if they are the same sex, they would be more likely to tolerate each other that way. If you end up with a breeding pair they will get aggressive towards other fish defending their brood, but they 'sleep' at night and clowns travel at night. None of my angel's eggs survive in the clown tank. I'd consider getting two different types so that if you DO get a pair and decide to raise a brood at one point or another (they do what comes naturally quite naturally...) you won't have a brother/sister breeding.

[betta blue]

Wow! I didn't realize how destructive Angels are to themselves. I am very apprehensive now with their antagonistic nature towards themselves. Thank you for the information.

Shar

[shari2]

I don't mean to scare you off. Most of the time, given definable territories, they will coexist fairly well unless there's a battle for a mate going on.

I had two of my males together in a 20g tall tank for quite a while, they just could not take the abuse of the other male and managed to make peace together without any damage.

My main problems stem from this one horrid male I have. Unfortunately, I want to keep him. The easier path would be for me to bring him to my friend Mike and make sure he knows that he's a one man show. But he's one of my earliest pair's get and i remember them fondly.

If you get two it sounds to me like the best bet. How many terrors like mine can there be?

[betta blue]

Thank you Shari! I had thought of getting about 4 to 6 Angels from the same tank with a mix of marbles and a couple of others. Everyone seems to keep talking tetras. Cause of my Betta's, I'm just very apprehensive of tetras and if I get them, would like some that don't do tail nip as the neons are suppose to. I went onto the site you recommended and the cardinals are noted to be bottom of the aquarium. I want some fish that do mid to top range. I know hatchet fish do the top end as well as the African Butterfly...so guess I'm asking about the mid range. When I first introduced my two clowns from the 10 gal.....the pl*c and the twig loved the fact that someone else was swimmining and they went back to Sept.days when both were active. Now, everyone is sleeping or hiding until the night. I obviously have a lot of nocturnal fish but would like to get some that aren't. As I said, I'm not in a rush anymore to just go out and buy...want the right ones and will take the time to hear what you guys recommend. Still need to buy the extra "hornwort" but that too, I would like to get something else that doesn't clog my vacuum. I actually did have it before and got rid of it cause I tried to "plant it" but it kept coming up and clogging my vacuum. Trying it again. I also had duckweed that kept clogging my filter and took months to get rid of it.

Again, I will ask if the clowns will keep the Platy breeding down?

I read that barbs and cardinal tetras are more bottom tank fish...need mid to top level.

Neon tetras are known to hurt Betta's. If I ever have to move them, they would go into a Betta tank. Are Black skirted or white skirted tetras known for fin nippers?

The 90 gal. is the only tank I don't have a Betta in. That's why I guess i keep going on about angels. I need a mid range fish...not sure about corydoras being midrange. I don't need more bottom dwellers. I would like some fish that get my clowns out and swimming but as I said, even my Pl*c and twig like some activity in the tank.

Please, I count on your experience before I get fish that don't work. Yes, I would love to have countless number of tanks but that's not a reality. I may be able to get one more 50 gal. in...and who knows with my obsession...but am content with cleaning and maintaining what I have already before going on.

Learning curve for me...and am counting on you with your experience.

Thx,
Sha

[shari2]

How about congo tetras, Phenacogrammus interruptus (also called featherfin tetras)?
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/bre ... Tetra.html



here's a group in a 55g:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tomla/109955107/

another set up is here:
http://ipt.boisestate.edu/awmarker/id71.htm


Beautiful fish, but on the timid side. If they are comfortable and swimming about, it would likely make the clowns feel secure. They like the same conditions as clowns-low light, soft, warm water. Some tall plants (limnophila, cabomba, or even Java fern on a tall piece of bogwood) around the sides of the tank so they have a place to hide with open swimming space in the center. They are not fin nippers, but they are a larger size than the small tetras recommended so far--up to 3+ inches-- so your school would not be large. They would definitely eat platy fry. Clowns might, too, but less if the fry stay in the higher levels, I'd think.

What are the dimensions of your tank? is it in a high traffic area?

[betta blue]

Thx Shari! My tank is 48in.long x 18in.widex24in.height. I will go out again this weekend to see if any of the fish stores have Congo Tetras to take a look at them. I'm planning on getting the larger clown this weekend...at most, it's 2 1/2 in to 3in. It will go into my Betta tank that is acting as a quaranteened tank as well as a hospital tank. I'm apprehensive that it isn't my ultimate solution to get my clowns out only cause, originally I had two clowns that were hiding constantly in the 90 gal. and when I introduced the other two, they don't school. Best I can tell at daybreak is that only one (probably the same one) joins them the two for a minute or two and then hides back. I'm now apprehensive about the angels...but I will wait two weeks in the quaranteen tank before putting the larger clown into the lge tank. So I still have time. My next question is with just a small 10 gal. tank acting as a quaranteened tank with my 1 1/2 yr old betta, is it too small to house a slew of dither fish? for a couple of weeks?

Shar

[Gary Stanton]

It depends if your Q tank has been cycled. If yes the you could keep quite a few dithers in it IF you don't feed them much. If not then obviously there would be a cycling problem. I guess you could change the water often but that sometimes is a shock to fish. You could test the water to make sure ammonia and nitrite don't go off the chart. This is kind of a trick question, too many variables.

[betta blue]

Sure appreciate the quick post Gary! My small tank is totally cycled...been going for a year and a half. My betta is a hardy, healthy fish. Did an experiment this morning by putting a mirror on the side of the clown tank. Moved the bog wood and got my two Sumatran clowns inquisitive to who was next door. One Borneo clown that lives in a cave in the bog, came out to see what the action was but quickly disappeared again. I think it's the first time I've seen 3 clowns at the same time. Saw movement in the bog wood while the other three were out. Thinking of removing the bog and forcing the two Borneo clowns out just to make sure they are still healthy. I have the two Sumatran's enjoying their mirror right now. I only keep it to the side for about 10 to 15 min. and then they go off and swim around for awhile but have now put the mirror there for about 5 times today and still have the Sumatrans swimming. First time for a couple of weeks since I introduced them to that tank. So am thinking a new strategy of getting maybe another one bigger one or three small size...so far, I've gone through ich with the Borneo crew from Pet Smart and fin rot with one of the Sumatran ones...so quite apprehensive of new ones. But my Betta is used to them so they'll go there this weekend til I know they are healthy. I don't ever want to go through ich in a 90 gal. again. I definately can't put angels in with the Betta in quarantine and would take the chance again putting them directly into the big tank. With dithers, I think I would prefer to quarantine them for at least a week or two but think I would be getting 10 of the tiny guys. Just not sure which yet.