90g tank with shy loaches

[betta blue]

PS: If I got another tank to be a quarantine or hospital tank, I know I would put a betta into it or another fish I saw that I wanted...so think, at this point to use the tanks I have. I do have a mirror about 8 1/2 in. from the back wall of the aquarium now. The fish don't see it...but with all the paraphenalia I've received from good intention family members, it gives me a place to put it behind the aquarium and in front of the mirrors (seashells, plastic plants, etc). That way, their gifts are still on display but not in my tank.

[betta blue]

Is there a difference between Borneo clowns and Sumatran ones? Been all day and now my Sumatran Clowns are quite active together in the tank (the mirror certainly helped). But I still don't see my Borneo ones? I can differentiate between the two and before I purchase any more, would like to know in case the Borneo species is shyer. My clowns are all still very small and by looking at the two Sumatran ones, I can'd differentiate sex...or they are the same sex. They are still pretty small. I don't see a crescent in their tales...both females...should I try to get a male larger one?

[betta blue]

I got 5 platy's today. Wondeful to watch them in the tank. No quaranteen but bought them from a fish store that does major commercial stuff...cost me twice as much but worth it. Went to my "dependable store" and saw the platys' with fin rot and their angels with what looked like a start of ich. I do appreciate the store cause when I said my concerns about both fish...they took them off the market. They said they were getting new fish in tomorrow, but I didn't think I wanted them if they went back into the existing or even other tanks that had a common filtration. So I bought these 5 platy's from another place...twice the cost...but looking healthy. When I introduced the platyies into the tank, they got one clown out of hiding, guess it's my docile alpha. Watched as he (she) tried to coax the other clowns out but they ignored him. I got three red platy's and two marbled ones. One marble one is totally independant and is not associating at all with the other four. Will get two more marbled ones tomorrow if they have them. Are seven dither fish too much for a 90 gal. to take in one and a half days? I plan on watching if the dither fish help the clowns come out...What I've seen is that one clown (sumatran) that came out and joined the platies for awhile in addition to trying to get the other clowns out. Finally, it gave up and went to sleep without any joining though I did see one come up, look around and then go back into hiding. You're right, I may have a quiet alpha clown. On Monday, I'm working close to the shop that has bigger clowns. If this weekend they don't come out with the platy's, I will buy the clown that is a bit bigger than my existing ones.
Advise is appreciated.

Shar

[betta blue]

Well weather hear dictated that I wasn't going to get the bigger clown. It's minus 39C here... I'm still not completely sure if a bigger clown will make a difference...as I said, the aquarium shop considers "bigger clowns" at half inch most 1inch more that the guys I have. None of my fish in the 90 gal. are concerned about my now 9 in. plec. I'm just looking at my 2 - 5gal. and 2 -10gal. All the fish and plants are doing well there. It's my 90 gal. that I'm having trouble with. I've gone to the plant forum to try to find out "natural" settings without co2. Too much to learn, getting old and probably a little late to learn all the scientific stuff...read a post from someone saying it's been 20 years since they've been in high school...well...it's close to 30 years since I have been there...and then, I had problems with biology. Now, I just want to learn how to keep what I do have alive and well! Cause I don't inject CO2 into my 90 gal., it seems to mean fish waste, etc to keep my plants alive that help my fish....I still need to learn more about that...honestly, an eco system is what I'd like to see...but need to learn so much more about it before inadvertently killing my fish. As I said, the angel fish in my LFS shop looked like they had "ick". I didn't buy them but bought the platy's from another store that looked healthy. I think 5 platys are not enough for the 90 gal. tank looking at the size of its inhabitants....1- 9" plec....1 - 6" twig catfish....4 - 2" clowns and 4 - 1 1/2 in. platies?

Questions:

How many more fish should I put into the 90 gal.? and then...which ones...clowns, platy's, angels if their healthy. I still have two yoyo loaches that need to be transfered out of a ten gal. Do I need another tank for them? or can they be melded with the ones in the 90 gal.

No idea about plants at this point but I think they are important to the fish and vise versa. Without CO2 that I'm apprehensive with my lack of knowledge that I'm afraid to implement by myself. I have very low lights...40 watts for a 90 gal. tank...but there is sunlight that terrestial plants in the same area loved. It's a "magic" spot for sun and plants.

Really would like to hear some advise and/or feedback to my 90 gal. delemma.

Thx,
Shar

[betta blue]

I now have 4 platys, 5 black mollies and floating plants. Two clowns are out all day (Sumatran), the two Borneo ones are still in the bog but I've been out of the house by 6:30am, so haven't had a chance to see if the other two do come out...will try tomorrow (Sunday). I've watched the Sumatran clown fish checking out the bog wood that the Borneo ones have stayed in and they're still not coming out. I still question buying a clown for $40 that isn't much bigger than the two Sumatran ones I have. I'm going to proceed with my 90 gal...still want the African Butterfly fish...guess I know have too many dithers that angels are out...my next quest will be with a "natural" tank without CO2 for my plants. Hopefully, when the Borneo clowns get too big to fit into their bog wood, they will come out. Thank you so much for your information! You guys are precious! I'm glad I found this site

Shar

[Gary Stanton]

The platys and mollies are cool. I wonder when they have babies if the clowns will eat them. My guess is yes. That will bring them out of the bog wood. You'll have to report when that happens. Have fun.

[betta blue]

Thanks Gary...my 9" plecostomus is not a happy puppy with the addition of the mollies. Hopefully the same amount of movement will bring my other two clowns out of hiding. But worse case scenario, is that they will grow too big to fit into their hole eventually. I was told one of my mollies was pregnant...we'll see! Other two clowns are no longer skittish and I can walk by them and they don't hide. I'm getting another snail explosion in the 10 gal. tank I took the sumatran clowns from and the LFS stores have no solutions. I read the dwarf loach is now an endangered species. I was hoping to find a fish to take care of the snails.
The betta fish does miss the clown loaches and the activity in the tank...it is definately moping....other tank, the yo yo's are no longer eating snails that are also overtaking another 10 gal....and I starved them for three days. Oh well, guess I just have snails...will transfer the yo yo's after the clowns reach their size. I have so many questions that the LFS shops don't answer... Thank heavens for forums like these!

Shar

[betta blue]

I have a large brood of baby mollies...some have been devoured by the inhabitants...but it looks like I have about 10 more baby mollies that have survived for the past week. The platys gave birth and not sure if it's cause of their color but no more are in the tank. I mixed it up and have two Borneo clowns that are in the tank daily. The Sumatran ones are still hiding and cause I go to work before dawn here, haven't seen them for a few days. Last time they were out, they looked healthy though. The dither fish have not made a difference to those two. I now have lots of "dither", my plec is not a happy boy with all the acitivity but hangin in there. I now have a whole group of new molly babies. I appreciate nature and predatory skills...but these babies have now been with me for about a week...maybe more have come and gone...but I have trouble now with their plight. I don't have enough tanks to take care of 15 babies...as outrageous as it sounds, I think I will be looking at the African Butterfly fish to take care of the platy and molly fry.

Back to my problem, two clown fish don't come out that I've seen other than at dawn. When I do get to view them, they look healthy... my major concern on not seeing a fish daily. I am now of the attitude that when they grow too big for the holes in the bog, they may come out. Decided not to buy the bigger clown cause it's only about 1/2" larger than my existing ones and it costs $40. With dithers, outgoing clowns, broods of mollies and platys, if the two clowns don't come out during the day for any of that, I don't think a large clown will do it for them. Have a lot of long days here working...but want to buy that African Butterly so I don't need to find homes for all of the offspring from the mollies...have one that is about to pop...and all the platy's look pregnant. Too many even with the sparse numbers that survive that I can maintain.

Shar

[betta blue]

Today I watched my "four" clown loaches at dawn. One clown loach is roughly 2 1/2in., the other own is about 2 in. Those two are out all day. Today, saw the other two at dawn "school" with the other two. They are about 1 1/2in. They were all the same about 1in. when I bought the four clowns. I'm not going to buy any more dithers, not going to buy a larger clown that's not much larger than my bigger guy. I've accepted that the two shy clowns don't come out during the day. I watch them at dawn to make sure they are still healthy. Every day, I try to use a magnifying glass and check each fish that they are healthy. Been doing that for over a year...I count fish, try to check what they look like and feed them....daily routine...then go to work to pay my bills and new hobby

It took 1/2 hour to finally see the other two clowns come out of hiding to make sure they were healthy and then they schooled...really schooled. My new platys and mollies don't school like the clowns did today...I think the 2 1/2" clown is the alpha. I still can't differentiate male and female with them. Not sure about crescent tails.

In rectrospect, I would find dither fish that were not live bearers...too hard on me to watch baby fish swimming to know they will be fish food. As hypocritical as it sounds, I don't have problems with eggs that I don't need to see a little fishes plight...

Shar

[Diana]

A planted tank is going to do much better if you can increase the lighting to at the bare minimum 1 watt per gallon. This, plus a little direct sun light would keep some of the low light plants alive.

Fertilizers for such a tank would likely include a little potassium and a little iron, perhaps a carbon substitute like Excel. (is this available in Canada?)

Plants for a tank with low light include:
Anubius and Java Fern. Either of these can be tied to a piece of driftwood instead of being rooted in the gravel. While your fish are small they probably cannot dig up plants, but as the fish grow some may decide it is their mission in life to dig everywhere.
Anacharis, also called Elodea. It is a favorite food of some fish, and will not thrive where there is Excel in the water.
Hornwort is a floating plant, it never develops roots. It thrives in hard water. I have looped it around the filter intake then the water flow spreads it out across the tank.
Guppy Grass. This also floats or drifts in the tank. Makes a very good hiding place for fry. Also, all sorts of microscopic things will live next to the leaves and the tiny fry can eat this stuff.

Adding a couple of more fish to a 90 gallon does not really upset the cycle. The added ammonia is diluted so much that the tiny rise in ammonia usually cannot be detected.

Your clowns at just an inch or two are too little to tell if they are male or female.

To deal with the snails, hand pick them and add them to the tank with the Clowns. (Were the clowns eating the snails before you moved them?) (Sorry, I have not read all through the thread)

Some fish respond really well to dithers. I have had good luck with German Rams, for example. I think your Clowns may well be shy, but have found a comfortable place to chill. Can you rearrange the furniture so that the mouth of any cave or arch is facing toward some part of the tank where you can look in and see them?
At just an inch or so long they may still feel like delicate fry that are afraid of being eaten.

More dithers are up to you, but how about some of the Tetras that like the warm water like Glass Bloodfins or Diamonds? Rainbowfish such as Melanotaenia praecox? (Many Rainbowfish prefer harder, more alkaline water- do a little research) This will make the tank more interesting to you, the Rainbows will eat livebearer fry, and they might help tempt the Clowns out.

[betta blue]

Thank you Diana for all the info. I'm getting a little frustrated with the plants in the 90 gal. I have been posting on the plant central forum cause I had wanted to do an el natural aquarium (I guess too late...maybe the next one) but I also know I want more substrate down...honestly, 2in. is not enought especially when I bought 3 plants in plastic baskets. I want to do 3in. of substrate in the back and 2in. in the front...am I out to lunch? Have a problem with the hood...it only holds one fluorescent tube. Though my husband is an electrician, everything I have relayed to him is not anything he wants to do. I guess I need to check out more on lighting on my own. I'm a little excited cause the hygrophilia polysperma "Rosanervig" grew about three inches in the past two weeks. Do I need to cut the top off to make it fuller?

I rearranged the bog wood that two clowns are hiding out. I used to be able to watch a hole that I could see one of them...can't see it now, but maybe the change of position will bring them out other than dawn? I will look at the tetras you advised. I've always been apprehensive of over stocking fish in a tank....I know both my plec and the 4 clowns are going to max out my current tank eventually...but I guess I have a long time to wait for the clowns to grow. Also wondering if more fish will provide more CO2 to the tank? Thank you for the info on the plants...it's all important to me and appreciate any info I get!

Shar