PH

[Curtis]

What issues would you run into if your ph was 7.8 and you kept clowns?

Does anyone else run a high ph with loaches?

My PH appears to be very stable but tends to be fairly high for most loaches.

[Tinman]

High ph burns their skin and damages the slime coat. Add a peat moss pillow to lower ph. You well not have long term success until you get to 7.2 or lower.Peat moss is a natural way to do this.

[Godfather]

And how low is still acceptable for Pangio's? In nature they live between litter so I guess a ph of 6 (or maybe even lower) comes close to their natural environment?

[Curtis]

Multiple questions,

Where does one buy peat moss? I'm having some difficulty finding it.

How does carbonate and general hardness affect loaches?

[mistergreen]

High ph burns their skin and damages the slime coat.

seriously? what's the science behind that?

[Tinman]

Where does one buy peat moss? I'm having some difficulty finding it

I get it at Lowes or even WalMart .I use Shults Canadian Spaghum. I buy air filter media in bulk myself and wrap it in that then ty wrap it like a pillow but you can use a womans nylon depending on your filter style and all. A little is alll you need. You do not want any massive or fast changes. Dianne has a great way of treating her water change water before introduction.I add the sock to my return as my system is rather large(1200 US gallons) since I use a trickle water change method.

Hardness effects them because of the skin like structure as opposed to the scales of hard water fish like chiclids.
I guess by carbonate you mean salt in general? A salt on the skin is like us breathing air polution in simple terms,it just burns them. I use it to treat any parasite by controling content via a TDS meter. Salt is not good for them but tolerable to kill parasites.
You may also purchase Indian Almond leaves on EBAY if you like for a similar effect but the peat dropped my TDS from 406 to below 300 so I prefer it. Both will color your water with tannins but I don't mind as its best for the fish.

what's the science behind that

I ain't a scientist nor ever tried to act as such. I have over 200 loaches and 30 plus years of experiance though.Look at all the posts with pics of slime falling of in hard water to see for yourself. If you want scientific explanations pay a vet.

[Tinman]

And how low is still acceptable for Pangio's? In nature they live between litter so I guess a ph of 6 (or maybe even lower) comes close to their natural environment?

Welcome Godfather. The people that keep these will have to answer that one,I only have a few similar to these .

[Curtis]

My TDS is hovering between 155 to 165 ish or so. PH when I ran the test kit was at 7.8 which was higher than I thought it was.

Where do you get the bulk air filter media that you put the peat in?

As you may remember, I have around the same gallons as you do and do continous drip as well... so your method isn't a bad method for me.

How much peat do you use on your system?
What was your ph and what is it now?

Thanks for answering all my questions.

I suspect that between being overly agressive in my continuous drip setup and the PH that is where my issues have been coming from.

[Doc]

High ph burns their skin and damages the slime coat.

seriously? what's the science behind that?

You can look at it like this.
A fish is evolved to cope with certain water conditions. Some temporary fluctuations will be easily coped with , however long term extremes outside the physiological range will cause trauma to both the internal and the external surfaces and organs whether it be too high or too low a pH or extremes of hardness or compounds.

Think of it like this:

Wash your hands in water that is pH neutral. No determinable reaction is there?!

Now wash you hands in water with a pH of 4.0 and/or pH 9.0 and you will not only see a reaction but you can actually feel the difference.

Imagine that effect on a fish!
The higher pH in this case would burn the Loaches skin and cause damage to the slime coat. The Loach would react by producing excess slime to fight the burning and help protect it. If prolonged the fish starts to suffer and the situation worsens.

[Batch]

How does carbonate and general hardness affect loaches?

carbonate (KH) acts as a buffer that keeps the PH stable . (PH
is a measure of the amount of H+ in an aqueous solution). Keeping the
PH stable, ie no big/fast changes is in general more important than the
actual PH value assuming it is close to neutral (7.0).

That said, are you using baking soda (NaHCO3) to keep your KH high?
Enough baking soda will drive the PH to 8.2.

There are several different ways to lower the PH, one could reduce the KH
(slowly!!) a bit - but not to zero!!

Adding CO2 will lower the PH (if you are into that kind of thing)

Phosphoric acid buffers will drive the PH to 6.5. Commercial buffers that
advertise PH 7 are most likely a mixture of the two buffers.

Peat moss also works and will soften your water (lower GH). You can reduce the discoloration with activated carbon.

Whatever method you use, go slooooowwwww.

I ain't a scientist nor ever tried to act as such. I have over 200 loaches and 30 plus years of experiance though.Look at all the posts with pics of slime falling of in hard water to see for yourself. If you want scientific explanations pay a vet.

Geeezz, dude. I really don't think mistergreen was trying to insult you. However, some of us are geeks who try to understand how things in a systematic fashion. Doing so, one is far less likely to perpetuate
wrong information. I have talked to people with far more experience than
i have who believe that fish only grow to the size of their tank, etc. etc.

Hardness effects them because of the skin like structure as opposed to the scales of hard water fish like chiclids.

Actually, it has to do with the envirorment that the fish evolved into.
There are lots of scaled fish that like very low PH, for instance there are
many species of Anabantids that have evolved to live in some pretty acidic (PH <5) conditions.

Batch

[Tinman]

Quote:
I ain't a scientist nor ever tried to act as such. I have over 200 loaches and 30 plus years of experiance though.Look at all the posts with pics of slime falling of in hard water to see for yourself. If you want scientific explanations pay a vet.


Geeezz, dude. I really don't think mistergreen was trying to insult you. However, some of us are geeks who try to understand how things in a systematic fashion. Doing so, one is far less likely to perpetuate
wrong information. I have talked to people with far more experience than
i have who believe that fish only grow to the size of their tank, etc. etc.

I am sorry for that reaction,I did not mean it as I re read it. The word burn was a bad choice. I very much like Docs answer. I apologize as fat fingers do not communicate as well as person to person. I did not mean that as it sounded.
I used to try to force the high ph and never had success until I softened a bit. My fish are much more active,grow better and survive at a much higher rate.
Numerous things can cause high ph and its effects differ around the world. I enjoy the different views and make my personal choices on the total membership response as opposed to any one answer.

[Tinman]

Where do you get the bulk air filter media that you put the peat in?

I purchase from a wholesale filter company ,you can find them in the phone book under air filters probably. I pay about 40.00 US for a roll of 30" wide 1" media that is about 60 feet long or so. It is very cost effective and I use it for a pre-filter on my return as well as another above my bio-beds to reduce flutuations upon removal and replacement.They haave the two stage with the blue over the white or just white. I just replace one of my two other than my peat blanket every couple of weeks as opposed to cleaning it.

I place about two handfuls in a 1' square of media folded over like an envelope and put it above my pre-filter every three weeks or so.I have moved about down 1 point via this method.

As others have re stated ever so slowly and then maybe half the first time. Your TDS is much lower than mine already at less than half.

[Tinman]

I suspect that between being overly agressive in my continuous drip setup and the PH that is where my issues have been coming from

How are your fish after slowing the drip rate?

[Curtis]

So far so good, no new deaths. The PH was higher than I thought, so I'll probably add some peat moss slowly to see if I can bring it down some.

I honestly don't know what my KH and GH are... didn't think to get a test kit for those... so maybe that will be my next purchase.

[mistergreen]

Yeah, I was confused by the term 'BURN'...
I guess Extreme PH 'burns' (0 degree or 10 degree) but with a variance with in 1 degree I'm not so sure of.

I hear KH & GH, TDS does more to affect fish than PH since PH is intricately linked with KH & TDS..

Just curious and questioning standard thoughts.