Fish on the edge...

[norocksplease]

Hi,

I have a 20 gallon seaclear tank with the integrated filtration system on the back. The tank has been established for nearly a year. It has a pictus cat, plecostimus, 2 clown loaches, one very large one at about 6 inches (he started at about 3.5 inches when I got him) and a small one who is around 3.5 inches and is the fish "on the edge."

Over the last few weeks I've been loaded with a heavy work schedule and have honestly neglected the tank a bit. It was finally brought to my attention at about 11:30 PM when I came home the other night and heard the pump acting up. Turns out that fuzzy algae had managed to thrive in the back of the tank as well as inside the lines from the pump to the tank. I've cleaned most of that out, tommorow morning I plan to blast and suck it out as well as take a pipe cleaner to the inside of the lines.

My Ammonias have apparently spiked dramatically which I think has caused my fish to itch himself to near death. He has white marks on his body, not so much spots, I checked for spots as I believe they are the signs of ICK or some other fish disease. These resemble scaring because on his sides there are white cresent shaped marks, this is the side that he freqently scratches. There are few on top of him right next to the thin part of his tail.

I changed about 25% of the water and added "cycle" inline with what the kid at the fish specialty store said.

Now this fish, a bottom dweller, is swimming just near the top and his big loach friend hasn't slept a wink all day. They usually both bounce between darting around the tank or sleeping in the corner one on top of the other. The last time I saw this behavior, it was months ago and my other pictus cat went into shock after an excessive water change He was found upsidedown the next day

What is my next best step to save this fish, I probably wont be able to get to the fish store today as they are closed, but if I don't find a dead fish in the morning, what is the next step?

I have a pretty heavy attatchment to these loaches to be honest, it's been hard to get them as big and BEAUTIFUL as they are, not to mention they are great, well tempered fish that have kept other types of fish I've kept in line when they grew violent.

Thanks for any help.

[Gary Herring]

Oh dear! I really don't know where to start. It's going to sound harsh, but I really do have to say that the conditions you are keeping your clowns in are totally inappropriate, almost to the point of cruelty. A 20gal tank is far, far, far to small for even the smallest clowns, and also they need to be in groups.

Firstly, if you have a spare tank and (mature) filter, get the sick clowns into isolation in a 'hospital' tank if at all possible. You can then try and treat the ich. If you are not able to do this, your best bet is to take the clowns back to the shop. If this is not possible either and they have to stay in the tank they are in at the moment for much longer, then i'm afraid the fish are very likely to perish. Whatever you do don't use any treatment in your tank untill the ammonia and nitrite are under control (ie. zero), as this will probably only make an already pretty grim situation worse.

The ammonia (and nitrIte) level in your tank MUST be zero at all times. This is important for all fish, but absolutley essential for loaches as they are highly sensitive to these pollutants. The white spot (Ich) outbreak you discribe will have occured as a direct result of the ammonia spike, so your first course of action is to get rid of the pollutants. In a tank that has been matured running for a year, you should never see a reading for ammonia or nitrite, so something has messed up your bio - filter and you need to re-establish it as a matter of urgency. Read this, it will tell you how: http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/modules/ne ... 9&forum=14

When you have re-cycled your tank and ammonia and nitrite are zero, you can then try to treat the ich outbreak. Protozin by waterlife is supposed to be one of the best treatments for ich, but you must only use half a dose as the loaches are so sensitive.

If by some minute chance your loaches survive, please, please get them a larger tank and increase the group to 5. You will need one at very least triple the size you have at the moment. If this is not a possibility, please consider finding them a new home where their needs can be met. I know its not what you want to hear, but to keep a 6 inch clown in a 20gal is unfair and unethical.

Good luck.

[norocksplease]

Tell me this,

Does ich only form in spots? I'm looking at pictures and it consistantly looks like a bundle of Zits on the fish. This fish has scrape like marks that are actually disappearing.... Not only that they DO NOT occur anywhere but from his front fins back...which is where he scratches.

As far as happy fish.... they usually dance around and click and look quite happy. My pictus cat is quite small and my pleco is also not all that big. They've never seemed sad however I have in the past considered buying a bigger tank and putting more fish in.

[Gary Herring]

Yes, ich alway's appears as salt-grain sized spots. Sorry, I misread that part of your first post, I thought you said there WERE spots, so apologies for that.

In light of this, the only suggestions I can make as the reason for the scratching is another parasite such as velvet, or perhaps more likely is simply the presence of ammonia in the water. If your fish has any external scratches or grazes (or some sort of ulceration?) that penitrates the 'slime' coating, ammonia will undoubtably irritate them more, perhaps leading to more scratching as you discribe.
Hopefully somebody else can offer you more suggestions on this, but priority no. 1 MUST be to get rid of that ammonia.

What exactly are your water test results?

Also, I wholeheartedly stand by all of what I said earlier regarding the ethics of keeping clowns - especially of the size of yours - in a tank as small as a 20gal. The advice has been offered, wether you take it or not is up to you. You may wish to seek the opinion of other posters on this site far more knowledgable than I, but I think you'll hear pretty much the same thing.

[norocksplease]

I'm tank shopping right now..then off to ikea to get a getto stand

Post links to good distributors please folks!!!

One of the things that has me most concerned is that the fish swims near the outlets where the pump pushes the freshly processed water out of the tank. Now I've come up with theory for this... he has figured out that the water there is processed and therefore has less amonias making him feel much happier. My worry is that he is going to swim himself to exhaustion. I've been spooking him down to the bottom where he rests for about 1-3 minutes at a time. As the ammonia goes down hopefully he will realise that all water is alike in the tank. I plan to remove more water tonite and hopefully convice the ammonia levels to drop off.

I spent 10 minutes trying to get an exact mesurement of the fish

Loach 1-5.4 inches

loach 2 3.3 inches

So my estimate was off by quite a bit, either way they look happy...well the large one who isn't sick does atleast. Like I said I will be tank hunting.

[TammyLiz]

Hi, I'd like to say that I second everything Gary has said--it is good sound advice. You must get a larger tank immediately if your loaches survive the ammonia issues. You'll feel bad for keeping them in such a small tank once you've upgraded and realize how much they need and appreciate the extra space.

In reference to your idea of going to Ikea to get a piece of furniture for your tank, I'd like to add a word of caution. Ikea furniture is usually flat-boxed to assemble at home, and most of it is made from pressed wood, as you probably already know. Every piece of furniture I've ever seen at Ikea would be unsuitable for an aquarium stand. Water weighs about 8 pounds per gallon, and considering one of your loaches is already almost 6 inches, you should be looking at purchasing a tank with a volume of 100-150 gallons. A 100 gallon tank would weigh 800 pounds, a 150 gallon would weigh 1200 pounds. No ikea furniture is going to hold this. Plus, pressed wood tends to swell and warp when it gets wet, which happens to an aquarium stand from time to time. (at least at my house--splash--whoops!) It wouldn't be worth saving the little bit of money (Ikea furniture isn't free, in fact, I'd say most of it is overpriced), only to find you have an even greater expense trying to clean up the flood in your house after your tank cracks.

Just some food for thought.

[norocksplease]

Am I right in assuming that if I get a 100 gallon tank, I will be able to add more fish, say end up with a total of 5 loaches, no new ones exceeding 4 inches and a pictus cat or two. So say, 8 fish and a pleco? or maybe just 4 loaches? Not too stuffy if you ask me. I was thinking about a corner tank to conserve space in the apartment I will be moving into will be small and I will need some extra space.

[Gary Herring]

One of the things that has me most concerned is that the fish swims near the outlets where the pump pushes the freshly processed water out of the tank.

I think this is probably completely normal behaivior. Clowns are river fish so they do enjoy having some currant in their tanks.

Yes 5 Clowns would be fine in a 100gal. In fact as I said earlier, 5 is the recommended minimum number as they are highly gregarious fish and won't usually thrive in groups of less than this. You should also consider a shoal of fish to act as 'dithers' and make your clowns feel more secure - you are also likely to see more of them if you do. Good dither fish for clowns include most barb's, danio's, rasbora's, etc.

As for the shape of the tank, a 100gal corner tank would be infinately better than what you have at the moment, but bear in mind the fact that the loaches are bottom-dwellers, therefore the 'footprint' of the tank is far more important than the depth.

How are the ammonia and nitrite levels now?