help me figure out why I can't keep clown loaches alive

[kimmers318]

This will be a long post...so be forewarned...but I am at my wits end by now. I started a 64 gal around end of Jan/beg. of Feb and once all was situated (cycled with bacteria from another tank) I added 3 clown loaches that were about 2" long. They quickly became my favorites, although I lost 1 within 2 weeks of purchase. The original 2 lived wonderfully, happy, eating well and always out and about for about 2 months....I then added a third to the mix again. While I was quaranting the new purchase I lost another clown....seems I am destined to only have 2 clowns. Did all kinds of research and the only thing I could fathom is that our hard water was too much for them....but I know others have kept them in hard water. Ph=8 gh+kh=300ppm, haven't found liquid test kits yet, so I have had to use the strips.....sorry. I then began a slow process of softening the water with RO, and am currently keeping the gh@75 and the kh @80-120ppm. New clown loach was added to the tank and all seemed well again for a time. For Mothers Day hubby spotted a striped and spotted clown loach and bought him for me. He had ICK at the time of purchase, and was quarantined, treated and adjusted well. Before I could get him into the big tank I lost another clown loach! Again leaving me with 2. Now, today, I found my oldest loach ready to die, and did lose him a little while ago. Now I am just left with the spotted guy from Mother's Day and am still trying to figure this out. All other fish are doing fine, no signs of an diseases on any of them, including the clowns. They just get inactive, when I don't see them for a whole day, I start moving decor looking and find a clown that looks skinny as can be and I lose him. The only other thing I can possibly imagine is the fact that I had planned a planted tank so I put some flourite in under my round gravel. It turns out I hate the flourite, and have tried to remove most of it, don't have enough light for plants so I don't need it anyway. I was told to use it if I wanted a planted tank, but wasn't asked about whether I had a light set up that would work! Some of the flourite has managed to sift into the gravel and I am wondering if this could be causing the loss of my clowns. I inspected the dead clown pretty closely and did see that his barbels were short, although still there. Could it be that the flourite is causing them to lose their barbels over time, and thus causing them not to be able to eat? Am I starving my poor clowns to death? Regardless, I plan on changing the substrate in my 20 gal TOMORROW to sand to transfer my last clown into until I can spend the time to change over the 64. Winter time is a good time for long projects! The 20gal is the Q tank, so it won't take much at all....right now there are just some platy' s in there having babies. If there is some type of disease/illness that is prevalent only with the clowns that could be causing my losses, please help me figure it out. They do well for 2-3 months, and then bye bye clown. I don't want my last one to suffer the same fate....I had plans on growing these babies out for a 90 gal tank, and was looking forward to watching them get big. Now, if I can't correct whatever mistake I may be making I think I will just give up so that I don't keep killing the poor guys.

[mikev]

Perhaps, you can post the readings of your tank (pH, gH, amm, nitrItes, nitrAtes)..this may give something to go on.

As for hard water/clowns: in the old threads by Xerxes on this forum you can find a similar problem: hard water made it impossible to treat ich and he/she was losing clowns; the problem was only solved by installing a R/O machine.

[angelfish83]

I have had a similar problem. The likely issue doesnt lie in your capacity to care for fish but the water itself.

I would lose all barbed fish until I installed R/O and used ONLY R/O (no tap water) in my tank. (obviously you will have to remineralize it).

My loaches/corys would slowly erode away their barbels and then die.

Get a good established tank going, make sure everythings good, then add some clowns that are over the hump say five or six inches, to good quality clean water and you wont lose any

[angelfish83]

sorry PS

When you make your water try to keep it nice and soft for them.

a gH of "barely there" say about 3 and a kH just high enough to stop crashes @ about 3 or 4 would be great.

[kimmers318]

Well, I tried the RO softening.....at first I tried 1 gal RO to 2 gal tap, and then bumped it to 1/2 RO 1/2 tap....which although still reads 7.8 on the liquid ph kit...gives me kh of 120ppm (test guide says 120ppm/180ppm/300ppm as ideal) and gh of 75 ppm, which is listed as soft.
Water parameters for am=0 nitrite=0 nitrate=0....tested this afternoon when I found the dying loach. Since I have set the tank up I have never seen an ammonia or nitrite spike testing weekly just before water changes. My last water change was Sunday morning.
As for the cory's losing barbels....it hasn't happened yet, and my first cory was bought before any of the clowns.
I don't know what the test strips equate to against the single digit readings for gh/kh I see, but I do know when I first started testing gh/kh I was getting kh=300ppm and gh=300ppm, which is listed as "very hard".
If I were to start using RO only, what would be the process for "remineralizing"....is this something that is fairly easy once you get the hang of it....or do I need to become a chemist? I have 4 cory's, some neon and gold tetras, sparkling gourami, 1 dwarf gourami and a lone bolivian ram who was supposed to be in another tank but got the crap beat out of him. None of the other fish are showing any signs of the "harder" water doing any damage....they are all vibrantly colored, eating well and happy little fish. I inspected the cory's closely today to see if there are any "whisker issues" and all look as lovely as the day I brought them home.
Lead me down the right path...and I will follow. First step is that tomorrow I am going to get some aquarium sand....any suggestions there would also be appreciated....and the 20gal long is going to be changed over this weekend and I will rehome my remaining clown loach for the time being. He is small enough that he will be okay for awhile. I can also try the RO only idea if you guys can lead me down the right path....but for now will just keep up with the 1/2 and 1/2 mix. We shall see how things go and I am sure I will be asking many more questions. If I can't get this little guy to survive I will probably not try clowns for awhile, it is too upsetting to see them being so silly for a couple of months and then find one wasting away and dying on me. I will probably also rehome a couple of cory's with him so he isn't too lonely.

[NancyD]

I can't help with R/O but a little with sand. Swimming pool filter sand is what many people use. It can be white or tan colored. I'm trying it in a small tank, not sure I like the white. Other people use play sand for kids from home depot-type stores. It tends to be finer grained so some worry it may compact & cause anaerobic pockets unless it gets stirred up once in a while. Others use sand-blasting sand, comes in many grit sizes & can be sharp or contain metals. Pet shops sell epoxy coated sand in small bags, tends to be light-weight, kind of floaty & hard to clean. I've heard the same about black tahitian moon sand. Petsmart now has a large grained sand but the bag says it may have an effect on water chemistry--this is definitely not for you, you don't need any minerals adding to your hardness problems. You should see 100% silica sand to be safe. Rinse it well to get rid of dust, use a deep tub or bucket with sand only about halfway. Let the hose run & stir it up with your hand. Keep your filter intake up 3-4 inches from them sand, it can ruin the impeller. To clean, hold the siphon tube about 3/4 inch above surface & swirl to pick up "dirt". It takes a little pratice.
I can sympathize with your frustration, I couldn't keep clowns at first either. That was back when pH was about the only thing we tested for & a few books & shop owners the only source of info. I'm surprised your other fish are doing so well since, except for maybe the gouramis, all your fish like softer,more acidic water. Good luck.
Nancy

[angelfish83]

If the problem is with your actual water- the only way to solve it would be to use only water which has gone through an R/O filter.

All you have to do to remineralize R/O water is add X number of teaspoons of a bottle of liquid and mix no chemistry degree required.

I personally use a PUREFLO 2 by Coralife. Its kinda crappy compared to say a KENT one but its cheap. it has a micron cartridge and a carbon cartridge then the water goes through the R/O membrane and then through a deionizer resin- which is good because I have lead in my tap water (hooray for lead)

*Obviously make sure you only use the pure R/O water not the waste water, your manual will tell you which hose is which. R/O machines waste half or more of the water run into them - you have to discard this water.

AaaAnnyways

I take five gallons of R/O water (Just use a Big Als bucket and fill to the first support ridge on the neck of the bucket) and add 3 teaspoons (15mL) of KENT R/O RIGHT, mix that in, then add 2 teaspoons of Hagen pH stabilizer (its just calcium carbonate) and mix that in... and then it goes into my storage bucket with a pump the moves the water around and a lid to prevent evaporation until I need it...

I hope it all works out for you....

[libingboy]

They just get inactive, when I don't see them for a whole day, I start moving decor looking and find a clown that looks skinny as can be and I lose him.
...
Could it be that the flourite is causing them to lose their barbels over time, and thus causing them not to be able to eat? Am I starving my poor clowns to death?
...
If there is some type of disease/illness that is prevalent only with the clowns that could be causing my losses, please help me figure it out. They do well for 2-3 months, and then bye bye clown.

maybe its internal parasites? sounds like the clowns become very skinny before dying? not sure if you did this already, but search for "levamisole" on this forum to find more about why the clown is skinny, and what to do about it...

[kimmers318]

I can buy RO water locally for $.25 gal....that isn't too bad, and that is how I have been doing it. I throw some 5 gal jugs in my van and run up to the machine and fill 'em.

According to the water company report they found 0 samples of our neighborhoods water containing lead levels....and the "maximum contaminant level goal" is 0. Copper is the same way...although I know these old house contain copper pipes because we have replaced some of ours. I use stress coat for all water changes which should neutralize heavy metals.

Another side note....which may or may not mean anything when trying to figure out if there is a water issue....one time my daughter tried mollies, when I read they need some aquarium salt I added the appropriate amount of Doc Wellfish's aquarium salt, and lost them in a couple of days. Chalked it up to they may not have been healthy to begin with, didn't make a connection. A couple of months later I purchased 2 female german blue rams for my male in another tank and I believe the one female had internal parasites or bacterial infection. I again tried salt to help aid in the recovery along with melafix and pimafix.....once I added the salt the fish went nuts zooming around the tank, they didn't settle down until I did a water change. So the ? has always been in the back of my mind that there might be something wrong in our water, specifically something that reacts with aquarium salt making the water very uncomfortable for the fish.

As for an internal parasite...is it possible this parasite only infects my clowns? And would it take 2-3 months before they start to waste away like this? If that is the case I will look for the levamisole and treat my last clown just in case once I move him to the Q tank. As I said....none of the other fish are suffering any type of illness. If I can figure out how to save my remaining clown who is still out and about, eating well and has all his lovely whiskers I would love it.

Someone else mentioned trying to treat ICK without luck until changing to full RO water. My last remaining clown was purchased knowing he had ICK, but he was so unusually marked I decided to take him and treat him. I only treated with increased temp X 3 days, and stresscoat with daily small water changes. I use the dosage recommended for treating damaged skin and fin rot. I have not seen a recurrence of the ICK since. The same can be said for my daughters white skirt tetras, they came down with ICK after purchase, treated the same way, and no recurrence in 6 months. If you believe the theory that ICK is always present in your water waiting for a host who isn't healthy enough to fight it off....these fish are healthy. I don't know if that theory is true or not, but I do know that I haven't used medications either time I dealt with ICK and it appears to be gone.

Will look for 100% silica sand as suggested. I have to run to Akron today to take my father to an ear specialist and there is a larger petsmart there which I believe carries aquarium sand. The smaller one closer to home doesn't carry it. I had hoped to actually find the black sand, I like the look of the black gravel I have in my tank, but if it is going to be harder to work with I will stay away from it.

Thanks for sticking with me everyone.....and wish me the best of luck. If there are any other ideas send them my way!

[NancyD]

Hi kimmers, just another or 2 thought on sand. I like the black substrate look too but I wanted to try a plant kind so I went with (dark gray) eco-complete. In the store it looked more like small gravel but this a.m. the stuff I ordered came & it seems more like coarse sand. Its about the same $$ as tahitian moon but it comes with a black water/bacteria/buffering liquid & I'm not sure how this may effect your water. DrsFosterSmith.com has $20/20lb & only $13 S&H based on price vs weight, they don't charge extra for heavy "freight" (up to $60 in my case). It might not be as fine as you'd want though. You don't rinse it either.
Pool filter sand is ~$10/50lb, play sand ~$5/50lb both likely 100% silica but check.
One other thing, I wonder why you don't test ANY nitrAte. Is your tank so heavily planted or is your tester old? Or maybe I misread your post
Nancy

[kimmers318]

Is it okay to use the colored play sand I have seen? As long as it says 100% silica? I didn't get time to stop at the petstore in Akron as Dad's ear appt took much longer than expected, and he had to go straight to dialysis.....so a shopping trip is scheduled for tonight.

I have often wondered about the no nitrate reading myself....but I do weekly water changes, the tank is understocked allowing for the larger sizes to come and I am using a magnum 350 biowheel prosystem that is rated for 100gal. All of this combined can be the only reason I can fathom things staying so good! The test kit is less than 6 months old....and I did get nitrate readings when fishless cycling my dwarfpuffer tank, and when hubby was cycling his tank. Although I had stuff to clone the tank with I wanted to try a fishless cycle myself and see how it worked. So I know the chemicals will read if there are nitrates.

Since there are so many variables we are looking at...let me ask a direct question....IF the flourite is wearing down the barbels/whiskers, would this cause the clown loaches to not be able to eat properly?

[notoo7]

When I first found this site I would lose 1 loach a week. That's one of the reasons I have too many now. I have learned with time and GREAT advise from LOL members;

1. Try not to buy Mega-chain store fish (WaXXXXX)
2. Make sure the tank is cycled, all my tank have two HOB filters, when starting a new tank I take one from an established tank. This cuts the cycling time dramatically.
3. Water Chemistry Water Chemistry Water Chemistry. The problem here in Las Vegas is the water tends to be hard.
4. Find a reputable LFS that treats their fish for parasites. My favorite LFS treats its clown for parasites and bacteria before selling them. SO i have bought 1" to 8" clowns with no losses. Also Quarentining the fish is important too.

[NancyD]

I'm not sure what you mean by colored play sand, like blue or just a natural tan? (It doesn't seem like parents would want to risk dying kids or carpets but I don't have any & my wild fish tank days a long gone ) Really play or pool filter sand is usually fairly local so there's a range of natural color, that shouldn't matter.

Yes, flourite can wear barbels down & cause problems for your clown. I've been looking a substrate a lot lately, can you tell? Some I saw looked like sharpish flaked pieces some (maybe a different brand or laterite) looked rounded. I read of others concerns & decided against it. Might be ok under gravel but sand will fall to the bottom & the flourite end up on top.

I think you have more than 1 problem & the water hardness is probably more important & more difficult to address. I do not know how to help but others do. Are you on public water? You may be able to get a water report from them that could offer some more clues.
Nancy

[kimmers318]

Yes, I have seen the colored play sand like blue...don't know how they color it though!

The flourite that was put into the tank is rather sharp edged....as I said, originally wanted a planted tank and it was recommended. Plants don't work for me...not enough light, although I occasionally buy 1 type my fish like to eat and give it to them for a couple of days, not sure what it is. And although the flourite WAS on the bottom, it has worked it's way up thru the gravel. I have removed quite a bit of it, but there is still plenty there.

I have heard of others keeping clowns in hard water, so it may be a combination of things. I have talked with others about my water quality, and have looked at the information they posted online, nothing has sent any red flags up in anyone's opinions on other forums. The clowns are the only problem children I have....in other tanks I have dwarfpuffers, more tetras, bettas, a krib, kuhli loaches and adf's without any wasting away losses like the clowns get. This last one that died did have noticeably shorter whiskers, which is really making me wonder if the poor guy starved to death. I will let ya know how the changeover to sand goes.

[NancyD]

kimmers, I wouldn't get the colored stuff, better to be safe. (Sorry to make you repeat things, too much antihistamines I guess) I was thinking there could be some regional water issue like naturally high levels of say fluoride or something that falls in the "safe range" for people.

As for internal parasites, wild caught fish, farmed too, usually have some level of some kind, not all are harmful. Some can pass to other fish, some can't. Chronic wasting is a symptom, it can also be caused by bacteria. Many of us now use levamisole in quarantine before fish get skinny. It's a round worm tx for farm animals, safe & easy to give to fish. Discus & guppy keepers use it too. (valleyvet.com ~$20) Do a LOL search for lots of info.

Nancy