A local fish store has some really pretty B. kubotai but for some inexplicable reason they have them --deliberately - in a tank with a ph of 8.2 (yikes!)
Why? I dunno. Maybe they think they're some kind of odd-looking cichlid. The guy who owns the shop is so arrogant I've learned not to bother to ask him any questions.
I wouldn't even have known about the ph of the tank, (although I did wonder why they were in a tank in the cichlid aisle) except when I asked for two of the fishies (to add to an existing group of B kubotai I've had for some time) the kid working the aisle said, "These are 'high ph botia' (sic). If they are going in a community tank, I have some other botia that would be more appropriate". I told him I wasn't interested in the Yo Yos and as far as I was concerned, there was nothing "high ph" about B. kubotai. During the ensuing conversation/debate, I found out they kept them at 8.2
Now, as far as I'm concerned these guys are nuts, but nuts or not, the point remains: the fish are in a high ph tank, have been for some time and have apparently acclimated to it. I left without buying them
Could I sloooooowly, safely acclimate them to a tank with a (more appropriate to the species, as far as I'm concerned) ph of around 7.2? Has the long term health of the fish already been hopelessly compromised by being kept in such alkaline water, notwithstanding that they've survived it thus far? They look ok. Really good color/sheen, in fact.
If I did try to acclimate them, how long/how gradual a water mix? Hours? A day? Days?! I always take my time with new fish (an hour or two) but 7.2 vs 8.2 would obviously be quite a radical change.
I should probably just pass altogether, but the fish are really pretty specimens, and the only B. kubotai in the area.
Thanks in advance for any advice any of you have to offer.
Acclimating to radical change in ph
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What's the tap water like and what are the other water parameters?
Specifically, what's the KH, GH, and TDS of your tap water and the LFS's tank water.
It's entirely possible to have very soft water with a high pH, so just knowing the pH isn't going to tell us much. Many cichlids, such as South American's are soft water fish, so it doesn't surprise me to see loaches in a cichlids isle. But if they are with Africans in very hard water, then that's just wrong.
Lowering the pH of hard water with phosphate chemicals, won't achieve anything beneficial to the fish. It's just going to lower the pH, and not the hardness of the water. Fish care more about changes in the hardness and TDS.
As for acclimating fish from hard water to soft water, it could take several weeks. This acclimation should be done in a quarantine tank and should last 3 to 6 weeks depending on the how drastic the change will be. So knowing the KH, GH, and TDS is essential. If the fish aren't 100% healthy, and need to be treated for parasites while in quarantine, then it could take longer.
Specifically, what's the KH, GH, and TDS of your tap water and the LFS's tank water.
It's entirely possible to have very soft water with a high pH, so just knowing the pH isn't going to tell us much. Many cichlids, such as South American's are soft water fish, so it doesn't surprise me to see loaches in a cichlids isle. But if they are with Africans in very hard water, then that's just wrong.
Lowering the pH of hard water with phosphate chemicals, won't achieve anything beneficial to the fish. It's just going to lower the pH, and not the hardness of the water. Fish care more about changes in the hardness and TDS.
As for acclimating fish from hard water to soft water, it could take several weeks. This acclimation should be done in a quarantine tank and should last 3 to 6 weeks depending on the how drastic the change will be. So knowing the KH, GH, and TDS is essential. If the fish aren't 100% healthy, and need to be treated for parasites while in quarantine, then it could take longer.
My water is fairly soft in terms of both KH and GH (typically 3-4 degrees) as well as low in TDS. Unfortunately I have no idea about the parameters of the the shop's water other than what they told me re: the pH. I could ask them, but I'm not sure I'd trust the answer. I could ask for a water sample and take it home and test it; I'm sure the owner would go for that in a big way 
There were a few small cichlids in the tank with the Botia, now that I think about it, but I wasn't paying any attention to them so don't know whether they were S.A. or rift lake varieties. Just for curiosity, I'll go back and see. Of course, even if they are S.A., I wouldn't necessarily count on the shop having it right and the water being correspondingly/appropriately soft
As an aside, do I understand you to be saying that - assuming the LFS water is, like mine, soft and low in TDS - the large difference in pH (10x more alkaline) would be relatively unimportant? If so, that runs counter to what I thought I knew, so I thank you for educating me.
Sounds like the most circumpspect thing to do is buy some other fish some other day some other place.
There were a few small cichlids in the tank with the Botia, now that I think about it, but I wasn't paying any attention to them so don't know whether they were S.A. or rift lake varieties. Just for curiosity, I'll go back and see. Of course, even if they are S.A., I wouldn't necessarily count on the shop having it right and the water being correspondingly/appropriately soft
As an aside, do I understand you to be saying that - assuming the LFS water is, like mine, soft and low in TDS - the large difference in pH (10x more alkaline) would be relatively unimportant? If so, that runs counter to what I thought I knew, so I thank you for educating me.
Sounds like the most circumpspect thing to do is buy some other fish some other day some other place.
I was just giving that LFS the benefit of a doubt, since I don't know all the facts. I know quite a few LFS owners, and some of the best ones are complete nut jobs. While some of the nicest owners don't know jack about fish, but they know how to sell just about anything.
I have a not so local LFS about 20 miles away, that doesn't use water straight from the tap. They proudly use RO filtered water (Reverse Osmosis) on all their tanks. They treat the RO water with the appropriate mineral additives for each aquatic eco-system, whether be for salt, brackish, freshwater, or somewhere in between. Since the water parameters could vary from tank to tank, I'd make sure to measure the water parameters of each fishes bag water and then match the quarantine tank's water the best I could to the bag water.
As for the pH, it depends what is driving the pH up or down. What I should of said, match the KH, GH, and TDS and the pH will usually fall in line. You'll probably need to ask the LFS if they add something like API's Proper pH 8.2 to their tap water. You'd want to get whatever they are using for your quarantine tank if you do decide to buy the fish. That way you can slowly acclimate them to your main tanks conditions.
As for your LFS, if you want to help them out, print out the profile of kub's and mail or email it to them. They are still relatively new to the fish trade.
http://www.loaches.com/species-index/botia-kubotai
Perhaps you'll also want to send them this article also, if it applies.
http://www.loaches.com/articles/why-loa ... i-cichlids
I rarely see kubotai where I live. So if I found a group of them for an affordable price, I'd probably jump on the opportunity to get them. I'd just be sure to quarantine and acclimate them properly.
I have a not so local LFS about 20 miles away, that doesn't use water straight from the tap. They proudly use RO filtered water (Reverse Osmosis) on all their tanks. They treat the RO water with the appropriate mineral additives for each aquatic eco-system, whether be for salt, brackish, freshwater, or somewhere in between. Since the water parameters could vary from tank to tank, I'd make sure to measure the water parameters of each fishes bag water and then match the quarantine tank's water the best I could to the bag water.
As for the pH, it depends what is driving the pH up or down. What I should of said, match the KH, GH, and TDS and the pH will usually fall in line. You'll probably need to ask the LFS if they add something like API's Proper pH 8.2 to their tap water. You'd want to get whatever they are using for your quarantine tank if you do decide to buy the fish. That way you can slowly acclimate them to your main tanks conditions.
As for your LFS, if you want to help them out, print out the profile of kub's and mail or email it to them. They are still relatively new to the fish trade.
http://www.loaches.com/species-index/botia-kubotai
Perhaps you'll also want to send them this article also, if it applies.
http://www.loaches.com/articles/why-loa ... i-cichlids
I rarely see kubotai where I live. So if I found a group of them for an affordable price, I'd probably jump on the opportunity to get them. I'd just be sure to quarantine and acclimate them properly.
Here is sort of a long answer. If you can test the GH, KH and TDS of the water in your tank, and in the store and post the numbers I will do the math for you. Read as far as the line then I an help you do this.
Set up your quarantine tank with your regular water.
Buy the fish.
Before you take the fish out of the bag test the water in the bag.
Make the water in the Q-tank match the bag water. Add baking soda to raise the KH. Add Seachem Equilibrium to match the GH (Epsom salt will do in this case- see note lower down)
Then acclimate the fish with the drip method @ 1 drop per second until the volume of water in the bag has doubled.
GH is the measure of calcium and magnesium in the water. Plants and fish really need both. If your tap water has some (GH is 3 degrees or more) and you are not dealing with plants, then Epsom salt adds magnesium, but no calcium. This is not too bad for the fish, but is unbalanced fertilizing for plants.
It will raise the GH and will make the Q-tank water more like the water in the bag. If you do not have either Epsom salt or Equilibrium, then I would buy Equilibrium for this use. It has a blend of more minerals that is more like natural hard water.
KH is a measure of carbonates in the water. This is one of the buffers that stabilizes the pH. When the GH and KH of the q-tank match the water in the bag then the pH will probably be closer, though the actual number is not important.
pH is a measure that was once really important because fish keepers did not have any other ways to test the water. Now that we have many other tests we know that it is the minerals and salts (not just sodium chloride) levels that are most important. The pH is not unimportant, but it can vary a LOT more than aquarium keepers of old used to think as long as the mineral levels are stable, and the fish will be fine.
Measuring the level of all the things (salts, minerals...) dissolved in the water is done with a device called a TDS meter. Total Dissolved Solids.
If you have a TDS meter this can be helpful, too. One of the local stores adds so much salt (I have tested it, it is sodium chloride) to the water that I could use my brackish tank as a q-tank! It is not enough for me just to match GH and KH, I do these, then add salt until the TDS matches, too.
Anyway, back to your fish.
Once they have settled into the Q-tank, monitor them for disease. Treat for internal parasites. Keep them there for a month past the time that any medicine has been cleared from the water. During that time you will be doing water changes. Make each water change with slightly softer water so the fish will gradually adapt over to your main tank water parameters. It takes time for the fishes' body to do this. Not just an hour or so, but several weeks.
_______________________________________________________
If you want more numbers:
Make any size water change you want, but set up the new water and do some math. The net result should be a change in GH or KH of not more than 10% when the water is getting softer. (Fish can handle increasing hardness a bit better)
With a TDS meter, make any size water change such that the net change is 10% less TDS.
You an make this much of a change about twice a week.
Lets run a scenario:
TDS of the main tank = 200 ppm.
TDS in the store water = 1000 ppm
Set up your Q-tank with TDS = 1000 ppm.
Make 25% water changes twice a week, using water with a TDS that is lower than the Q-tank.
First water change: New water = 700 ppm, end result = 925 ppm (This is less than 10% reduction in TDS from 1000 to 925, so is safe)
2nd: New = 600 ppm, net = 845 ppm. (Again, 925 to 845 is not even 10% lower TDS)
3rd: New = 500 ppm, net = 760 ppm (845 - 84.5 = 760.5- safe, but this is the maximum drop that is safe)
4th: New = 460 ppm, net = 685 ppm
5th: New = 420ppm, net = 619 ppm
...
and so on until the water matches.
Here is the general formula:
(%water that stays in the tank x TDS of that water)
+
(% new water x TDS of that water)
In the example above:
75% x 1000ppm = 750 ppm
25% x 700 ppm = 175 ppm
Add: 750+175 = 925 ppm
compare that number to the goal: maximum of 10% drop in TDS:
in the example above, 1000 x.9 = 900. 900 is the goal for the first water change. A little higher, less of a difference, is OK.
Set up your quarantine tank with your regular water.
Buy the fish.
Before you take the fish out of the bag test the water in the bag.
Make the water in the Q-tank match the bag water. Add baking soda to raise the KH. Add Seachem Equilibrium to match the GH (Epsom salt will do in this case- see note lower down)
Then acclimate the fish with the drip method @ 1 drop per second until the volume of water in the bag has doubled.
GH is the measure of calcium and magnesium in the water. Plants and fish really need both. If your tap water has some (GH is 3 degrees or more) and you are not dealing with plants, then Epsom salt adds magnesium, but no calcium. This is not too bad for the fish, but is unbalanced fertilizing for plants.
It will raise the GH and will make the Q-tank water more like the water in the bag. If you do not have either Epsom salt or Equilibrium, then I would buy Equilibrium for this use. It has a blend of more minerals that is more like natural hard water.
KH is a measure of carbonates in the water. This is one of the buffers that stabilizes the pH. When the GH and KH of the q-tank match the water in the bag then the pH will probably be closer, though the actual number is not important.
pH is a measure that was once really important because fish keepers did not have any other ways to test the water. Now that we have many other tests we know that it is the minerals and salts (not just sodium chloride) levels that are most important. The pH is not unimportant, but it can vary a LOT more than aquarium keepers of old used to think as long as the mineral levels are stable, and the fish will be fine.
Measuring the level of all the things (salts, minerals...) dissolved in the water is done with a device called a TDS meter. Total Dissolved Solids.
If you have a TDS meter this can be helpful, too. One of the local stores adds so much salt (I have tested it, it is sodium chloride) to the water that I could use my brackish tank as a q-tank! It is not enough for me just to match GH and KH, I do these, then add salt until the TDS matches, too.
Anyway, back to your fish.
Once they have settled into the Q-tank, monitor them for disease. Treat for internal parasites. Keep them there for a month past the time that any medicine has been cleared from the water. During that time you will be doing water changes. Make each water change with slightly softer water so the fish will gradually adapt over to your main tank water parameters. It takes time for the fishes' body to do this. Not just an hour or so, but several weeks.
_______________________________________________________
If you want more numbers:
Make any size water change you want, but set up the new water and do some math. The net result should be a change in GH or KH of not more than 10% when the water is getting softer. (Fish can handle increasing hardness a bit better)
With a TDS meter, make any size water change such that the net change is 10% less TDS.
You an make this much of a change about twice a week.
Lets run a scenario:
TDS of the main tank = 200 ppm.
TDS in the store water = 1000 ppm
Set up your Q-tank with TDS = 1000 ppm.
Make 25% water changes twice a week, using water with a TDS that is lower than the Q-tank.
First water change: New water = 700 ppm, end result = 925 ppm (This is less than 10% reduction in TDS from 1000 to 925, so is safe)
2nd: New = 600 ppm, net = 845 ppm. (Again, 925 to 845 is not even 10% lower TDS)
3rd: New = 500 ppm, net = 760 ppm (845 - 84.5 = 760.5- safe, but this is the maximum drop that is safe)
4th: New = 460 ppm, net = 685 ppm
5th: New = 420ppm, net = 619 ppm
...
and so on until the water matches.
Here is the general formula:
(%water that stays in the tank x TDS of that water)
+
(% new water x TDS of that water)
In the example above:
75% x 1000ppm = 750 ppm
25% x 700 ppm = 175 ppm
Add: 750+175 = 925 ppm
compare that number to the goal: maximum of 10% drop in TDS:
in the example above, 1000 x.9 = 900. 900 is the goal for the first water change. A little higher, less of a difference, is OK.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
Thanks to both of you for your replies.
I went back today out of curiosity, and the few cichlids they had in the tank were O. ventralis, which of course is a Lake Tanganyika cichlid. I had also previously failed to notice all the aragonite spread on the tank floor.
In short, not only is the pH is high but the water is doubtless hard.
Unlike Diana, I don't have a brazillion tanks and unfortunately have only one dedicated to quarantining new or sick fish. I don't think I want to turn it into a rift lake tank thus taking it out of service for anything else just for the sake of a couple of fish who may well be already compromised by the inappropriate conditions under which they've been kept. But again, thank you both for sharing your knowledge. Interesting and useful.
I went back today out of curiosity, and the few cichlids they had in the tank were O. ventralis, which of course is a Lake Tanganyika cichlid. I had also previously failed to notice all the aragonite spread on the tank floor.
In short, not only is the pH is high but the water is doubtless hard.
Unlike Diana, I don't have a brazillion tanks and unfortunately have only one dedicated to quarantining new or sick fish. I don't think I want to turn it into a rift lake tank thus taking it out of service for anything else just for the sake of a couple of fish who may well be already compromised by the inappropriate conditions under which they've been kept. But again, thank you both for sharing your knowledge. Interesting and useful.
Perhaps you could sent them an email and give them the link to this thread so that they know they lost a customer due to keeping kubotai in water conditions not meant for them. It would be nice to see this problem corrected. If you'd like, I'll let them know, but you'll need to PM me the name of this store and where it is located.
I haven't found the owner of this store to be particularly open to anyone else's ideas, chef; he's an old-schooler who knows what he knows, and I just pretty much nod at him and make sure I go in armed with my own data. They have two spectacular, big (1600 gal ea), living reef display tanks, however, so obviously someone there knows something, unless construction and maintainence of those is sub-contracted out.
In any event, I'll pm you the shop's name and a link to their web site if you'd like to take a whack at communicating with them. They don't appear to have an email address listed, though.
In any event, I'll pm you the shop's name and a link to their web site if you'd like to take a whack at communicating with them. They don't appear to have an email address listed, though.
Yes, it would take time to acclimate them (Usually less than a month, but take a month to properly monitor for diseases), but once done, the Q-tank an be redone to other water parameters. No need to put (or keep) aragonite or coral sand in there just to acclimate the fish from that shop.
I am facing about the same thing whenever I buy from that one local store. I plan a trip, set up the Q-tank and dedicate it to those fish until they are ready to go into the main tank. The same as if I bought the fish anywhere else. Quarantine is for several purposes, including disease, parasites AND acclimating the fish. When those fish are cleared I can change the water in the Q-tank to whatever is needed for the next fish.
I am facing about the same thing whenever I buy from that one local store. I plan a trip, set up the Q-tank and dedicate it to those fish until they are ready to go into the main tank. The same as if I bought the fish anywhere else. Quarantine is for several purposes, including disease, parasites AND acclimating the fish. When those fish are cleared I can change the water in the Q-tank to whatever is needed for the next fish.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
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