Spotted Dojo Loaches -- Eating Habits and General Questions

[Mr_Obsidian]

Hello Everyone.

I am a new aquarist and have recently purchased a pair of spotted dojo(weather?) loaches. They often lie around the tank in goofy positions, but occasionally run around the bottom, or shoot to the top like a rocket.

I love these guys, but I am concerned about them not eating.
I feed my other fish tropical flakes (once or twice a day) and alternate days with bloodworms and baby brine shrimp.

Having never seen the loaches eat the forementioned food, I bought shrimp pellets. Nothing in the tank seems to like those, they just sit on the bottom and develop a nasty looking slimy bubble. At that point I end up fishing them out of the tank. Needless to say, perhaps, that I stopped putting shrimp pellets in my aquarium.

I then purchased some "Loach Wafers" which look like Algae wafers/discs.
The packaging states that they are specifically formulated to appeal to loaches and bottom feeders. But, just like the shrimp pellets, they simply sit on the bottom of the tank and, again, form a slimy bubble.

I sometimes observe my loaches crawling around the bottom of the tank, looking as if they were "sniffing" around with their whiskers, but I have yet to see either of them eat... anything. I have even tried feeding them flakes from my hand, but they just get frightened and swim away.

If anyone could offer advice regarding their feeding habits, or recommendations for a particular food, I would be greatly appreciative.
I am going to try some algae wafers in a day or two, but beyond that I am clueless. The stats for my tank are as follows:

29 Gallon Bowfront Aquarium, with a 30 gallon Whisper filter.
Temperature maintained at 75.5 degrees farenheit.

- 1 tiny Bumblebee Catfish
- 5 Black Skirt Tetras
- 1 Blue Powder Dwarf Gourami
- 1 Otocinclus
- 2 Spotted Dojo Loaches

The tank has been up and running for about 2 weeks, and I've had the dojo loaches for one week.

I am very keen to check water quality parameters daily, and have been adding Stability bacteria supplement appropriately. I've also performed two 20% water changes to keep Ammonia levels in check.


Thanks in advance for any help!

[Hurricane Charlie]

Hmmm thats a toughy, My weather loaches usually taste anything that goes into the tank, and will usually eat anything resembling food.

Turn the temp down for them though

[angelfish83]

-This isn't your fault, you were given bad advice no doubt... but here are the breaks. Your fish don't go together, and your tank is too small for weather loaches.

-Your temperature is too high

-Your bumblebee catfish just FYI will soon be large enough to begin eating your other fish. They are evil little things.

-You didn't cycle your tank. Even though Stability claims to be like Bio Spira in that sense, it isn't. You have fish that won't eat because they've been poisoned by living in an uncycled aquarium.


Now-- I'd like to say something- don't we see one of these or two every week? Just in this little forum? Something should be done here. There needs to be some kind of standardized test for retailers and customers alike to make sure that people don't put fish into completely unrealistic and unhealthy conditions like this...

No offense to you who started the thread- this is a very large problem.

[mikev]

Hi, Obsidian,

It is hard to diagnoze the problem on the basis of the information you provided, but here are a few things to check:

1. Acclimation: did you acclimate the fish properly? Please describe the procedure. It is possible that your fish is dying from an osmotic shock.

2. Ammonia: "keep Ammonia levels in check" sounds very scary. What are your ammonia readings? What about the rest of the tank parameters?

3. Does the fish look healthy? Post photos, if you want. It may be sick with some disease too.

4. Adaptation to the new tank: Many loaches take time to get accustomed to the new surroundings and will eat very little during this time, if at all. This may continue for a couple of weeks. Presence of hiding places would greatly help in making the fish feel more secure. What do you have in your tank anyway?

5. Insufficient aeration? -- this is not likely, but still, what kind of aeration do you have, if any?

Now, Melafix is generally not a good idea with any kind of loaches. In fact, it is not clear if Melafix ever is a good idea, extra water changes tend to help just as much.

hth

PS. Right now, your immediate problem is to get the fish back to health. I will not therefore comment on other problems you have: inappropriate tank and tankmates. Do know, however, that you cannot keep dojos in your tank for long.

[mikev]

Now-- I'd like to say something- don't we see one of these or two every week? Just in this little forum? Something should be done here. There needs to be some kind of standardized test for retailers and customers alike to make sure that people don't put fish into completely unrealistic and unhealthy conditions like this...

No offense to you who started the thread- this is a very large problem.

This is simple. LFS want your fish to die, so you come back for more.

[Mr_Obsidian]

-This isn't your fault, you were given bad advice no doubt... but here are the breaks. Your fish don't go together, and your tank is too small for weather loaches.

-Your temperature is too high

-Your bumblebee catfish just FYI will soon be large enough to begin eating your other fish. They are evil little things.

-You didn't cycle your tank. Even though Stability claims to be like Bio Spira in that sense, it isn't. You have fish that won't eat because they've been poisoned by living in an uncycled aquarium.


Now-- I'd like to say something- don't we see one of these or two every week? Just in this little forum? Something should be done here. There needs to be some kind of standardized test for retailers and customers alike to make sure that people don't put fish into completely unrealistic and unhealthy conditions like this...

No offense to you who started the thread- this is a very large problem.

First off, thank you for your reply.

I certainly did my homework before setting out onstarting my aquarium, but I find that information both online and otherwise varies GREATLY.

To address your comments:

The info card at the pet store stated that Dojo loaches should be kept in a tank 20 gallons or larger. I've read all sorts of contradictory claims online, ranging from the stated 20 gal. minimum, to those who claim you need at least a 55 gal. tank. Also, variations in reported size. The general consensus seems to be that dojo loaches don't get larger than 6-8" in an aquarium environment, so I thought they would be fine in my 29 gallon.

Same thing with temperature. I know dojo loaches prefer colder temps, but I've read several sources that say they are fine up to the high 70's. Some people report keeping them (and healthily) in water which is in the low 80's.

I should have clarified that I have a South American Bumblebee Catfish. I forgot there is a much larger relative also referred to as "bumblebee."
Every source I have read on these guys claims they only grow to about 4 inches, which would be too small to eat my other fish, with the possible exception of the Otocinclus. The black skirt tetras are already pretty big and growing.

As far as the cycling goes, I followed with precision the directions that accompanied my tank. It stated that I could add 2/3 of my tank's maximum capacity (following the one inch rule) in the second week, so long as parameters matched the enclosed chart. Also, "Stability" claims right on the bottle that fish can be added at any time, so long as Stability is added per the instructions. Also, it is only the loaches which aren't eating. All the other fish are eating, thriving, growing, and healthy.

Now, I registered on this forum because many users seemed to be experienced and knowledgeable about loaches and other fishes in general.
Taht being said, I respect your opinion.
My only question now is what to do. If my tank is indeed too small for the loaches, I am screwed. The pet store will not take them back, and I do not have the means to obtain a larger tank at this time.

Any options or advice you can offer?

Again, my thanks!

[Mr_Obsidian]

Hi, Obsidian,

It is hard to diagnoze the problem on the basis of the information you provided, but here are a few things to check:

1. Acclimation: did you acclimate the fish properly? Please describe the procedure. It is possible that your fish is dying from an osmotic shock.

2. Ammonia: "keep Ammonia levels in check" sounds very scary. What are your ammonia readings? What about the rest of the tank parameters?

3. Does the fish look healthy? Post photos, if you want. It may be sick with some disease too.

4. Adaptation to the new tank: Many loaches take time to get accustomed to the new surroundings and will eat very little during this time, if at all. This may continue for a couple of weeks. Presence of hiding places would greatly help in making the fish feel more secure. What do you have in your tank anyway?

5. Insufficient aeration? -- this is not likely, but still, what kind of aeration do you have, if any?

Now, Melafix is generally not a good idea with any kind of loaches. In fact, it is not clear if Melafix ever is a good idea, extra water changes tend to help just as much.

hth

PS. Right now, your immediate problem is to get the fish back to health. I will not therefore comment on other problems you have: inappropriate tank and tankmates. Do know, however, that you cannot keep dojos in your tank for long.

Hello Mikev, and thanks for your reply.

To answer your questions:

1. I acclimated the fish by allowing the bags to float in my tank water for approximately 20 minutes. I then netted the fish and placed them gently into my aquarium. I did not mix the store water with my tank water.

2. The Ammonia levels have been reading .25 ppm, which my set-up guide states is within the normal range for the second week of operation.
I have performed the two water changes as precaution, to prevent further ammonia increase as the bacterial colonies become established.

3. The fish look very healthy generally. I'll try to post pics in a day or two. I don't know what sex they are, but one is about 3 inches and very light tannish/green color with virtually no spots. The other is about 4 inches and much darker green, with many spots.

4. As for the tank envronment... I have 11 artificial plants of all sizes, most of which (all of the taller ones) are placed around the edges and back corners of the tank, which leaves ample swimming room in the front and center, where only a couple of very short plants in that "open" area.
To the left I have a fairly large (maybe 8 inches or so) casket decoration that is air powered. The bubbles it made were way to large and noisy, so I do not use the air action. It can be considered a virtual rock, with crevasses that are only large enough for the tiny bumblebee catfish to hide in. He resides in that decoration all the time. On the right side of the tank I have a medium sized cave (6 inches or so in width), which the loaches like to hide in from time to time. The opening is just large enough for the dwarf gourami to fit inside. Next to the cave is a decoration which resembles driftwood and plant growth (about 4 inches wide). I also have small bubble wall (4 inches) under the gravel, which is placed about 3 inches to the left of the cave entrance. When I turn the hood light off, my tank is illuminated by 3 LED lights (Marina brand). There is one blue and one white LED at the top left pointing down, and one red LED on the ground by the bubble wall. The effect is such that the left side of the tank is slightly illuminated, as if by moonlight, but the right side of the tank remains dark.

5. I guess the bubble wall could be considered aeration? Or is that not considered true aeration?

Again, thanks for the reply!
Any further advice is appreciated.

[Mr_Obsidian]

The water readings are as follows:

My PH is stable at about 8. The water straight from my tap is about 7.4, so I imagine that something in my tank has raised the PH level, but I have no idea what. Everything in the tank was labeled "for aquarium use."

The buffering capacity of my water is very high, so altering the PH seems unlikely.

I am detecting no notable levels of Nitrate or Nitrite as of today, despite adding Stability solution every day for the first 7 days, and every other day since.

The water is very soft.

Ammonia levels are currently reading .25 ppm, which sources I've read state as typical for this point in the nitrogen cycle.


I have standard aquarium gravel, mixed red and black colors, which has recently caused me some concern. I've read that softer substrates should be used for the dojo loaches, but the pet store assured me that they use gravel, and that the loaches do not need to borrow and will not be harmed by the gravel I have.

I added aquarium salt only upon starting my aquarium (I believe the ammount was one tablespoon per 10 gallons of water). I have not added further aquarium salt because I have read that the dojo loaches will not tolerate it.

I do my best to remove uneaten food every day, but obviously I cannot possibly get all of it. The tiny bits remain.

I have thus far performed two 20% water changes and was sure to de-chlorinate the water before adding to the tank ( I believe StressCoat or StressZyme was what I used -- whichever one is the dechlorinator)

I have not yet performed a gravel vacuum, and will do so in a week or two. I am uncertain as to whether such cleaning impacts the forming bacterial colonies.

I have well water, not city water, so changing chlorine/chloramine levels should not be an issue.

[mikev]

Very brief (need to sleep):

Cycling with fish is inhumane, ammonia is a poison even in low concentrations. However, this is likely not the main problem: dojos are very hardy and should be able to survive 0.25 for a while.

The main problem is probably the acclimation. If the water at the store was neutral (around 7.0) and you simply dumped the fish into 8.0, you caused what is known as the osmotic shock. It is often fatal, and not eating is one of the symptoms. In other words, not mixing water is ok if the water is similar, but very dangerous if it is not.

If the fish survives, add high pH to the list of problems to solve.

Now, if this is indeed an osmotic shock, there is pretty little you can do other than wait and hope. You can make your dojos a bit more comfortable by creating some current in the tank.

See also the profile on dojos on this site, it will tell you about their basic requirements.

[Mr_Obsidian]

Thank you to everyone for your replies and advice.

I am continuing to research my loaches' eating habits, and the compatibility issues with my tank.

All research indicates that the South American Bumblebee catfish should be fine in my tank, and I will leave him in.

I must say that the amount of misinformation on the web and from the pet stores is utterly frustrating.

Having followed the directions contained with my aquarium for "avoiding new tank syndrome," it makes me angry to learn that they were not wholly accurate.

This misinformation problem seems utterly irresponsible to me, and the fact that such inaccuracies may well lead to the deaths of many living creatures really bothers me.

I have read several accounts of Dojo loaches that were never seen eating (perhaps they ate when their owner was asleep or away), yet lived for many years. I do hope this is the case with my loaches.
All I can do at this point is wait and see, while continuing to check water parameters and experiment with alternate food supplements.

I will post updates as time allows. Hopefully I am over-reacting.

[sophie]

water changes will be good.

surface current adds oxygen to the water, and while dojos aren't current-lovers, if there's a still patch on the floor they'll be happy. If you're keeping them in warmer water than they like they will need the extra oxygen. They can absorb oxygen through the gut (farting dojos are a joy to behold) but if they're in a new tank with nitrite and ammonia, gettng some current would be a good move. Try having the filter outlet above the water level.

High pH, soft water is much less of a problem than hard water, IMHO. keeping it stable IS an issue, so adding a buffer would be something to consider. My water is like this and I have shells & coral in the tank, I don't do big water changes and I don;t have problems.

Dojos are omnivores. Mine eat anything, greedily. At the moment, if they're not feedng, pease don;t make the mistake of putting loads of food in the tank in the hope they eat. You're just going to increase nitrite/ammonia levels. They'll be fine for a while. I'd try feeding bloodworm, but sparingly. They're pretty much blind, and if they're not feeling happy or well they'll have problems sniffing out food at the moment.

Dojos live in temperate water. This means that they can and will tolerate cooold water, as well as warmer water. I don't keep mine at a constant temperature - the tank is unheated and can get cold in the winter and alarmingly warm in the summer. They are very happy with this. I wouldn;t recommend keeping them at a constant warm temperature, as it's not natural for them - they can handle it, but it's not ideal. They are tremendously hardy fish and can tolerate extremes of temperature and very low oxygen levels - up to and including being out of the tank for a while!! - and as many species come from what are described as "muddy puddles" you can see why. My feeling, however, is that they will need periods of significantly cooler temperatures to approximate their natural conditions - though none of us are likely to turn our aquaria into muddy puddles

Dojos can acclimatise very badly, so I would strongly recommend frequent water changes for the next couple of weeks. DOn;t forget to dechlorinate the water first, btw.

best of luck,

[swimswithdojos]

Wow i made a profile just to answer this one. Dojos can obtain 12"+ but are more commonly just 10" in the aquarium. The aclimation method you used would cause them to go into shock. I dont think osmosis is the issue but its possible. Dojos are one of the few fish that can withstand high(as considered by tank standards) traces of amonia and one of mine has survived out of the water for 8hours. The tank probably wont work with the size they grow to, however being that they are so small and tehy grow slow you have time to rehome,sell,return or upgrade their tank. As far as dojo compatibility with other fish, they do get along with most. The exceptions are other agressive species of loach and large aggressive fish such as certin gourami,cichlid and so on. Im not sure about the other fish in your tanks compatibility with eachother. My loaches love anything i put in the tank algae pellets,ghost shrimp(only when the loach is bigger),flakes,granuales and brine shrimp. The dont care for blood worms or atleast mine dont. For now i would keep the tank at 78 degrees or lower(to 74 for your other fishes sake). I also would just like to state that i do have 2 gold dojos in a 30gal long with white peagravel and some plants. With them are a few corry, a dwarf gourami and some danios. This setup has been working for 7 months so far. I understand im new to the forum and i do not mean to disrespect anyone here. good luck with your tank and get us some pics.

[Renea]

Hello,
Try frozen pea's. You have thaw them some and peel them before you put them in the tank. Also, try Aqueon color enhancing goldfish granules, thats what we use and they love it.

[Renea]

Also, it takes about 8 weeks for your tank to establish its self. Some other things that our loaches like is bloodworms, we feed those from turkey baster, we have one for each tank and do not use them for anything else. I stress that because you cauld make the fish sick. Gold Fish Flake food.

[Dojosmama]

1. Dojo loaches are coldwater fish. Your temperature for them shouldn't exceed 70F for prolonged periods of time. It will shorten their lives if your tank is consistently too warm.

2. While they'll eat during the day, Dojos tend to be nocturnal feeders. If you drop in algae pellets at night before you go to bed, you might have better luck getting them to eat them.

3. Dojos like to hide in caves -- you should provide same. You should avoid any sharp objects or rough surfaces in the tank, as these can cause injury.

4. Digging in the substrate is normal for them. Sometimes they'll even bury themselves in the sand or small gravel with only their little heads sticking out. This is normal behavior for them.

5. It might take awhile for them to become accustomed to their new surroundings. Give them time.

6. My own Dojos' favorite food is Sera's O-Nips. These are soft tablets that sink to the bottom and are loaded with nutrients and goodies of all kinds. My Dojos go crazy over them, as do some of my other fish. Take one tablet and break it up into several small pieces and scatter these along the bottom of the tank. Your Dojos can handle them better in smaller pieces, and your other fish will also grab some up.

7. Do you have a test kit for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? If you don't, you must get one. While your tank is cycling, you should do daily water changes. ALWAYS DECHLORINATE ANY NEW WATER. You should have a water conditioner that will neutralize both chorine and chloramine. Both are deadly to fish. It will take your tanks several weeks to complete its cycle. When your ammonia and nitrite readings are zero (0), and your nitrates are zero or very close to it, your tank is cycled and safe for its occupants.

8. What is the pH of your tank? You can also test for that. Dojos like a pH of from 6.8 to 8.0.

9. Have you tested for the hardness of your water? Dojos like a medium-range hardness.

10. KEEP A TIGHT LID ON YOUR TANK. DOJOS WILL JUMP OUT IF THEY CAN.

A 29-gallon tank is okay for two or three Dojos. The minimum size tank for Dojos is 20 gallons, larger is preferred. Their tankmates, however, are unsuitable, as they need warmer temperatures while the Dojos need cooler temperatures.

Hope this helps. And good luck. Dojos are normally very easy to care for, but they must have their needs met, like all living creatures.

-- Dojosmama