3 of my Yoyo loaches just died! :(

[TammyLiz]

I use prime and API test kit. I was told by someone else that it does not cause the false reading, that any test kit that has two agents added to get a result are not affected by this problem.

I have been under the impression that if there is ammonia present in the water (there is some in my tap), and prime is added, the test kit is detecting not the ammonia, but the ammonium, which is what the Prime converts the ammonia to. It says right on the test kit that it is testing for both.

I have added a ton of prime to a bucket filled with about a half gallon of water that had a ammonia level reading 1ppm (tap). I added prime and added prime and added prime and waited and there was no change in the result. 1ppm. This leads me to believe it was the original ammonia in the water that it was detecting, not the prime. Although the prime was changing the ammonia to ammonium, it was still being detected by the API kit. So the reading would not be false, just vague on which form was there. I had a guy come over from the water company come and test my tap (not the bucket), and he got a reading of .26ppm, even though my test kit was still saying 1ppm. So bah. Who knows?

I'm going to go put some prime into some tank water (which won't have ammonia in it) and see if that API test kit produces a false reading from the prime. That should help clear up whether the readings are from the prime or not.

[chefkeith]

From Seachem-
http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Prime_faq.html
Q: I am using Prime™ to control ammonia but my test kit says it is not doing anything, in fact it looks like it added ammonia! What is going on?
A: A Nessler based kit will not read ammonia properly if you are using Prime™... it will look "off scale", sort of a muddy brown (incidentally a Nessler kit will not work with any other products similar to Prime™). A salicylate based kit can be used, but with caution. Under the conditions of a salicylate kit the ammonia-Prime complex will be broken down eventually giving a false reading of ammonia (same as with other products like Prime™), so the key with a salicylate kit is to take the reading right away. However, the best solution is to use our MultiTest: Ammonia™ kit... it uses a gas exchange sensor system which is not affected by the presence of Prime™ or other similar products. It also has the added advantage that it can detect the more dangerous free ammonia and distinguish it from total ammonia (which is both the free and ionized forms of ammonia (the ionized form is not toxic)).

[chefkeith]

here's another good article on the subject-
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/w ... tkit.shtml

Ammonia tests. There are two basic types of ammonia test kits. Nessler kits have one reagent, that is, a single bottle of liquid or one tablet to dissolve in your water sample. If your ammonia test kit registers in shades of amber, it's Nessler. They generally are quicker to use, but ammonia-locking products (e.g., AmQuel) will cause Nessler kits to give false positive readings.

The other type of kit is salicylate based, with two sets of reagents. If your ammonia test kit registers in shades of yellow to green to blue, it's salicylate. Salicylate test kits are unaffected by AmQuel and similar products, but they do take longer to develop a reading. If your water has chloramines and you're using AmQuel or somesuch, you'll need a salicylate NH3 test.

Don't test for ammonia right after a water change. If you're too liberal with the dechlorinator, you could be getting some false-positive ammonia test results that way, too. According to Seachem at their website, harmless sodium thiosulfate, such as found in Seachem's Prime conditioner, will give false positive readings for ammonia, whether the tests are based on Nessler's Reagent or on salicylate. What happens is this: the sodium thiosulfate, Na2S2O3, is reacting with the chloride ion that is part of the test reagents. After 24 hours, though, according to Seachem, the Na2S2O3 will have have reacted with chloride ions naturally found in water, and will no longer give such false-positive readings.

[chefkeith]

Here's a Prime question to a Seachem Rep at Aquatic-Hobbyist.com
http://www.aquatic-hobbyist.com/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=11784

Returning to the topic at hand, I want to make sure I have it right. To be perfectly honest, I've never given any thought to HOW Prime works or why.

My water company uses chloramine in their water. I use Prime as a water conditioner. Immediately after a large water change, I can get readings of up to .25 ammonia on my salicylate tests. It is quickly either outgassed or handled by the biofilter, and I never see any traces of ammonia after that. If Prime breaks down after 48 hours, I assume my biofilter is handling it.

If I were to add Prime to chloraminated water in a clean vessel, would the ammonia levels showing on the test rise after 48 hours due to the breakdown of the Prime?

And would these results be different with a Nessler test?

Sorry to pepper you with questions on this, but now you have me curious.

Yes, and all tests would be off until after the 48 hours. This may be why you see the ammonia even after using the Prime. A better tool as Alice knows is the Ammonia Alert. This will monitor free ammonia regardless of the water conditioner being in the water. And yes, your biofilter is taking care of it as I had mentioned to Liz previously. The bind is generally long enough that the bacteria safely resolve the ammonia without issue prior to its release.

[mikev]

Ey,

Sorry about the lost fish.

I think I had a pretty similar problem (excluding fish death, and ammonia rising only to 0.25). Check the buffering in your tank, it may be non-existant. If this is the case, adding a very small amount of alkaline buffer (for example, SeaBuffer) will eliminate ammonia within a few hours.

[TammyLiz]

chefkeith, thanks for all of that. I did do the test with tankwater overdosed with prime (lots of prime, no ammonia). The result was 0. I would say that likely the ammonia reading in ey's tank was not false unless, as the article you were quoting says, it was taken a couple of days after a water change in which the prime had started to break down. The API test kit falls under the description you made of the salicylate test kits, not nessler. As I was saying, it has two reagents. Also, it does go from yellow to green, but there is no blue at the upper end of the scale so maybe its something different.

I don't usually take any tests within 48 hours after a water change. So I can't confirm the false reading after 24-48 hours.

[chefkeith]

Tammy- API makes both kinds of tests. I actually have the AP Ammonia Test kit that is Nessler based. I do get a false reading in RO water when treated with Prime. I doubled checked that before I wrote about it earlier. But I was wrong because I didn't know AP also made a silci based test like the one you have. I learned something. I wonder which test kit "ey" has.

Funny thing is, I can't remember ever having a fish die from ammonia. I do remember one time when ammonia was present in one of my tanks, my fish started acting real crazy, especially my clowns. I just added some Prime and they acted normal again. Another time I had ammonia in a q-tank, my boesemani rainbowfish jumped out of the water into the glass top and made all kinds of banging noise. Some of them actually jumped out of the tank through a small gap near my filter. Good thing I heard all the noise and was nearby. I just added some Prime to water, put the fish back in, and they were all fine after that. I've been real lucky.


Makes me think that the information on the links I posted tells us something more. 48 hours after a water changed Prime loses it's binding power. Any binded ammonia would then be free, and that could cause a huge ammonia spike.

Why would the Yoyo's be the only victims though. I hope we'll all figure this out soon.

I'm still thinking this is bacterial though. I've lost fish from Bad Bloodworms before.

[ey]

Thanks all for replying.

I too would like to know why it is only the yoyos that died and none of the other fish were effected.

I did start feeding frozen bloodworms (Hikari ones) again last week, I fed 5-6 blocks every 2nd day, so perhaps there may be an issue with bacteria? But wouldn't other fish be effected too and be dead by now?

So should I STOP feeding frozen bloodworms to prevent further yoyo losses?

[mikev]

I too would like to know why it is only the yoyos that died and none of the other fish were effected.

There were two episodes reported this year (one on LOL, on on fishforums.net) of all Yoyo's dead overnight with no symptoms and no reasons found. In both cases, people who reported this sounded experienced and the fish was owned for long time.

I did not hear any stories like this about any other Botia species.

This is not enough to conclude anything, but just may be there is something about yoyo's that makes them more sensitive to _something_.

[chefkeith]

I'd stop feeding those bloodworms. Atleast until things are better again. If there is a water quality problem, bloodworms will only make it worse.

Which Ammonia Test Kit do you have? The Nessler or the salicylate kit?

[TammyLiz]

That is so strange that they'd have two different kits. I would never have guessed.