looking for some advice?

[eelise]

Your three little tetras aren't happy

Please explain, I would love to know what else I can do to make them happy ?

[angelfish83]

Your three little tetras aren't happy

Please explain, I would love to know what else I can do to make them happy ?

Add many many more tetras

Tetras in the wild live in massive clouds of thousands of fish.

I dont know what kind you have, but, the quantity of tetra varies by tank, for example in a 10 gallon, 9 or 10 neons is plenty. In a 20, you'd want maybe 14, in a 35, you'd want atleast 20, in a 55 you'd want atleast 30+, etc, because they tend to space out and you want a maximum of about 4" between tetras for them to be happy. All tetras like to be with other tetras. Some less than others, Serpae for example often quarrel and they like their 'alone time' but its not common.

[eelise]

Your three little tetras aren't happy

Please explain, I would love to know what else I can do to make them happy ?

Add many many more tetras

Tetras in the wild live in massive clouds of thousands of fish.

If what you are suggesting is true, then I would have a tank of only tetras? IF you go by the rule of i inch of fish oer gallon. SO, do you advocate that we should only have one species per tank ? Becasue if we try to imitate nature, we would all have one species and 100 ga tanks, unless, I am not quite understanding the big picture here. My understanding is that 3 makes a school. I am not sure how literal we should about imitating nature, cause, I think many of us can't "truly" give these fish what they have in nature. Which, I do respect the view that animals shoudln't be kept in captivity, but, I don't think that is what you mean.

[mikev]

We have to compromise, trying to achieve a reasonable balance between the needs of the fish and our desire to have more interesting tanks (more species).

Thus, one would usually have small but functional schools. The requirements of different species are different, but 5+ is typical. Not 20 and not 3.
It may be that the people who keep your tetra found that it has to be 8+ (I'm only giving an example), in which case you try to follow their lead because they have more experience.
It is always a good idea to think this through and if having a sufficiently large school will eat up too much of your tank capacity, chose a smaller species.

With loaches, 5+ is typical again. It is not an absolute requirement, and it is certainly not applicable to some violent species, but unless you know for a fact that your species has different needs, you follow 5+.

Do the math. Body Inches<=Gallons, loaches must be 5+, dither must be 5+. If you go a *little* over, but are committed to regular frequent water changes, you should be ok, top fish (tetras) and bottom fish (loaches) occupy different planes.

hth

[TammyLiz]

eelise, I hope you're not frustrated but I can understand if you are. Keep in mind that threads on this forum frequently get off of the original topic so not all posts in your thread are directed at you. Some members of the forum (sometimes myself included ) word things a little too strongly but don't take it personally.

EDIT:
I see mikev posted before I was done typing. In short, I agree with you that it is important to keep the people in mind, too. Some people go nuts defending animals to the point where they forget people are just as important. Personally I believe people are even more important than animals, but we have a responsibility to care for them. It can be hard, when keeping pets to find that balance. I think the best way to do it is to choose something that you can accommodate within reason. For instance, if you live in a small apartment, don't get a dog that belongs on a farm. Same with fish. I think a weather loach in a 20 gallon would be like a farm dog in an apartment but kuhlis would be OK. You can't make everyone happy with your decision but there is something called reason that some people ignore and go off the deep end in one direction or the other. I don't believe angelfish83 is one of those people, but I do think he tends to word things a little too strongly. Do take it with a grain of salt. In general, the accepted number of tetras is 6. From my experience I would go with more like 7 or 8. I have a group of 5 that did much better when it was 6, and I like that buffer there, in case one is lost.

[eelise]

eelise, I hope you're not frustrated but I can understand if you are. Keep in mind that threads on this forum frequently get off of the original topic so not all posts in your thread are directed at you. Some members of the forum (sometimes myself included ) word things a little too strongly but don't take it personally.

Thank you for saying that, but I do not take it all personally, I just truly want to be humane and reasonable, and I am getting so many different views. I truly want to do the right things, I have never found anywhere where people truly know about loaches. I have accepted that my small tank is not good for parge loaches, which I love, that is fine. I would not want to put a fish thru something that is not good for it, so I am trying to get some information, but I am not gettign a concensus on anything excpet that loaches 3-5 minumum in a tank, I get that.

[TammyLiz]

I know I put this earlier in the thread, but I think kuhlis would do fine. I have a tank the same size and when I sit in front of it and look, it looks big enough for fully grown kuhlis to me! I even tried it once but lost two of them within the first couple of days, and the third one committed suicide in the filter! From what I understand early deaths are common with kuhlis. Here is a link to the thread on what I am planning on doing with my tank:
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=3046

Beware, it is long and rambling and gets off subject!

[shari2]

OK people. We are loach fanatics and that is fine. Some of our determinations and advice may seem a bit of an overkill for those who just think they are cool fish and want to keep some.

While yes, we have experience and can offer advice based on that, we all do realize that mileage in any given tank WILL vary as will individual experience. To say that someone's fish aren't happy...well that's a judgement call that may or may not be so. WE can't see the fish tank, or do the maintenance, or know the total picture of someone's tank enviroment other than what they tell us. And though we may think we know better, ultimately the fishtank is NOT ours and we have no more right to boss people around about how they keep fish than we do to tell them how to raise their kids.

We offer advice based on our experience, and should do it with that in mind. Wether or not our advice is accepted, we offer it in good faith and WE should not take it personally if the asker decides to do otherwise. It is their right. We are not the 'Loach Police', nor the loach ASPCA and I hope that none of us feel we should be.

So eelise. Your tank is YOUR tank. YOU get to decide how and what you want to put in it. You also deal with the problems that may arise and take whatever enjoyment you may find in it. Evaluate our advice, get input from your family, think what YOU like and based on information you find reliable build and enjoy your tank.

Isn't that what it's all about anyway?

[angelfish83]

1" of fish per gallon is a crock.

20 neons in a 20 gallon is MAYBE one third of a reasonable bioload if you don't overfeed and you plant lightly and do lots of water changes.

I had 12 bleedinghearts in a 55, they were terrified. Meanwhile I've also had six in a ten gallon that I was babysitting for my sister which were wonderfully comfortable.

It all depends on the environment. Personally, for fish the size of neons, i'm sticking with what I recommend. If we're talking about bigger tetras like congos, you could easily only keep five, for anything smaller than a silver dollar (the coin not the fish) I suggest larger numbers. The fish simply do not behave the same way. I am talking from experience here.

It does vary by species and there are exceptions to any rule. Ive seen a forty gallon withonly six, albeit very happy black skirt tetras.

Generally, get seven or so as a bare minimum if you insist on going small scale, but Tetras are only fun to watch in a large enough schoal not to be flittish...

As per conflicting advise, if you don't want to believe every person, add the sum total of the advice up, get a sum, divide that sum by the number of people who gave you an opinion and go with that

[eelise]

OK people. We are loach fanatics and that is fine. Some of our determinations and advice may seem a bit of an overkill for those who just think they are cool fish and want to keep some.

While yes, we have experience and can offer advice based on that, we all do realize that mileage in any given tank WILL vary as will individual experience. To say that someone's fish aren't happy...well that's a judgement call that may or may not be so. WE can't see the fish tank, or do the maintenance, or know the total picture of someone's tank enviroment other than what they tell us. And though we may think we know better, ultimately the fishtank is NOT ours and we have no more right to boss people around about how they keep fish than we do to tell them how to raise their kids.

We offer advice based on our experience, and should do it with that in mind. Wether or not our advice is accepted, we offer it in good faith and WE should not take it personally if the asker decides to do otherwise. It is their right. We are not the 'Loach Police', nor the loach ASPCA and I hope that none of us feel we should be.

So eelise. Your tank is YOUR tank. YOU get to decide how and what you want to put in it. You also deal with the problems that may arise and take whatever enjoyment you may find in it. Evaluate our advice, get input from your family, think what YOU like and based on information you find reliable build and enjoy your tank.

Isn't that what it's all about anyway?

I appreciate what you say here, yes, it is my tank, and I value what you all say, because of your experience. I do think some of the "judgements" are not needed, but, this is only a forum on the internet, I have low expectations from a personal perspective, I just want a friendly envorinment to get some advice. You all have given me a lot to think about.

I still have one or two questions that I think are fairly black and white. I have had kuhlis before I like them and know them well. I keep seeing conflicting information about zipper loaches. I was looking on the internet and I keep seeing articles that they should be kept alone becasue they tend to fight with their own kind. That seems very "un-loach-like". Can anyone shed light on that? What are the size of zippers conaored with kuhlis?

[eelise]

I know I put this earlier in the thread, but I think kuhlis would do fine. I have a tank the same size and when I sit in front of it and look, it looks big enough for fully grown kuhlis to me! I even tried it once but lost two of them within the first couple of days, and the third one committed suicide in the filter! From what I understand early deaths are common with kuhlis. Here is a link to the thread on what I am planning on doing with my tank:
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=3046

Beware, it is long and rambling and gets off subject!

Thanks for your advice, that really helps:)