Hiding Cheni

[mikev]

I thought I lost it....for a few very scary minutes. Did not realize they do this:



Am I correct in assuming this one is a girl? (no red on the dorsal, very small nosdrils, very shy especially given its size)

[mikev]

I'm assuming that the animal below is a male: red dorsal, large tubercles, and very assertive behavior: no other chenis are allowed to sit on this rock.(Strangely, he does not mind fuzzies, they can even sit on him.)



Both animals, incidentally, are above the Max TL limit for Chenis.

[Martin Thoene]

Forget the red. It's not an indicator of sex. It seems some races have it, others not.
The first one looks like a female because of the almost unnoticeable nasaltubercules. You said "nosdrils", think you meant nostrils. The nostrils are not the tubercules. The fish appears to be broad-bodied just forward of the dorsal, so is probably female.

Second one, judging by the back contour and overall body depth (although the camera angle makes it difficult) is probably a male. I can't see very prominent nasal tubercules though.

Martin.

[mikev]

Thanks, Martin,

I can see (what I think is) them but not on this picture. The best I can right now is this (see the nose)



(problems with taking "his" photos: he does not leave the rock, and usually is on the far side of it.)

Here are a couple more shots: both from the bottom:


(Don't know which is which, but it is these two animals.)

"Alleged Female"


The other part of the question is of course if these are even Chenis. Notice: 5cm/2in is the MaxTL for Cheni, 6cm is the MaxTL for Myersi.

[Martin Thoene]

Well. what I can tell you from underneath is that neither of them are sexually mature (or active) males.

Check out the second picture here, and compare the underneath view.
You can see the largest tubercules either side of the nose from underneath in a sexually active male.

Martin.

[mikev]

Ok, I think I understand now. Thanks a lot.

I assume that new fish (these two are here only two days) would not be sexually active until it settles down a little. Let me look at them again in a couple of weeks and see if anything "grows".

[Emma Turner]

Some of my Sewellia do that 'hiding behind the powerhead' thing too.

Emma

[dlenn]

The first time our smallest P.Cheni did it we thought it was going to get stuck/squashed.

We had difficulty figuring out what sex ours were before they became mature too. To make things more confusing the largest one now we know is a breeding female started out by chasing everyone else round the tank.

The tables changed when we introduced more variety and they matured. The maturing took place over a few months though.

[mikev]

Some of my Sewellia do that 'hiding behind the powerhead' thing too.

Emma

Interesting. This never happened here. The three species that I saw doing it are Gastros, Aborychthys, and of course Kuhlis.
Hmm...it actually would be neat to collect pictures of different species doing this.

dlenn, thanks. These two have no room to mature, they are larger than 2" already; but they probably need some time to settle down. There are also four smaller ones who have some growth potential, but none of them has tubercles right now. The main thing that matters is that these guys actually appear healthy unlike any Cheni I had before...fingers crossed. Right now, even the smallest ones are very active, eating all the time and escape well from the fuzzies:



Breeding is not an immediate issue, only a dream, I don't even have a tank where it may occur...the only large tank with space right now has schisturas and danios in it.


One dumb question: could anyone please explain what is "pectoral origin" and "ventral origin" ? Do these refer to the point of the fin that it closest to the head? (I still would like to know if these are Chenis or not).

[Martin Thoene]

Yes "Origin" refers to the front leading edge of the fin where it grows out of the body. Anything in front of that is "anterior" to it, anything behind "posterior".

Martin.

[Jim Powers]

I've had chenis and gastros get on the back of the powerhead many times. Once, I was taking out a powerhead to service when a young cheni fell off and landed on the carpet. I got it back into the tank quickly, no harm done. It had turned dark to match the black powerhead and was almost invisible.

[LES..]

It looks like you have some nice fish there Mikev, it must be a great relief to have your patience finally pay off with these guys :-)

Just to throw my oar in to the mix, I suspect you are not seeing much sexual dimorphism at the moment due to the stresses of transport and the effects of being in a new and strange environment. Such things are not conducive to being in prime breeding condition. I am of the opinion that the tubercles are only developed when the males are ready to mate, this is just what i have observed with our loaches so YMMV ;-)

Give them some time to get comfortable and make sure they are eating well. Each time we have added new Cheni to our family there has been a significant settling time where we have not seen much evidence of gender. One of the last loaches we added was about 1.75" when we got him, this was over a year ago now and it has only been in the last month or so that we have been able to sex him as his tubercles have grown. He achieved 2" maximum size back in the spring.

That said i think that i have been able to sex two of our juveniles at less than a year old one is definitely a female, the other i suspect is male. This is based on body shape, sheen of the belly, attitude and just maybe the hint of tubercles. Of course now that i have made this statement i will be proved completely wrong :-)

Oh and if you think chenis can hide, we have named our S.Wui 'Phantom' as he can vanish in a bare tank! (no we are not keeping him in a bare tank, there is plenty of decor with hiding places and he seems happy enough to shuffle around the tank while we are watching, that is until the camera appears...)

[mikev]

I've had chenis and gastros get on the back of the powerhead many times. Once, I was taking out a powerhead to service when a young cheni fell off and landed on the carpet. I got it back into the tank quickly, no harm done. It had turned dark to match the black powerhead and was almost invisible.

Fascinating!
Gastros here can change the color of course, but this new batch of chenis does not do it...for now they are pretty pale regardless of the background.

It looks like you have some nice fish there Mikev, it must be a great relief to have your patience finally pay off with these guys

Thanks, LES, but TBH I simply gave up. The Chenis whose pics I posted before are still not doing too well: I lost another two in the last two weeks (5 left now) and their behavior still does not feel right: they are insufficiently fast and active and eat very little (with one exception). Hopefully, some will recover and eventually join this group, but I don't have too much hope. (They are in another Q-tank, there is still a tiny chance that it is some kind of disease.)

These new guys are much better (fingers crossed). The smaller ones eat all the time and run around. The only one I did not see eating is the large "female", but she is producing pretty long plecorations, so she must be eating sometimes.

[mikev]

Hmmm, with loaches, always expect the unexpected.

The big "male" guy decided to become the Alpha today. Confuzonas are no longer exempt, he chases them too...a lot. Three other smaller Chenis decided this is a great idea, so they chase confuzonas, each other, and even try to chase the big guy. In a face-to-face confrontation, a smaller cheni would always lose, so they jump the big guy from the back.
A total madness....I have not yet seen this much activity in a tank.

The only part needed for full happiness is for the big "female" to take part in the activities...so far she prefers to hide in the corner or the powerhead.

[mikev]

These guys are really far the most interesting hillstreams

Donno what happened overnight, but today the "male" is hiding in the corner, and the "female" rules the middle of the tank.... and the smallest fish (<1") is having the most fun, sucking on an algae wafer almost continuously, with only short breaks to chase confuzonas..