No Clowns in a Cube project

[shari2]

The No Clowns in a Cube project is gaining momentum.

For those who are interested here is their First Response to sully. Pretty generic. Could be they think he's just one guy with a beef...but I think they will begin to change their mind shortly. . .

Check out the site. Read the letters. Then send one of your own or one of the samples, or two, or twenty!

They will notice. Things will get better for fishkeepers, for fish, and ultimately even the retailers. Wouldn't it be nice if even the big chain stores gave out accurate information regarding the fish they sell? That's what this is all about.
Accurate information, nothing more, nothing less.

[shazam26]

This is a brilliant idea! It would be above all else, beneficial to the fish as well as the people who started out like me. Pet store clerks not knowing info, selling to an individual who trusts their opinion, only to find out...
I went to the pet store in my home town, a bit bigger than the one here, just to see...
I asked her about loaches. She told me sand was now a no-no for aquariums holding anything but rays. She also told me that clown loaches would be fine permanently living in a 30-40 gallon tank.
It's obvious the clerks can't be trusted.
Then to read the stupid signs claiming bala sharks only grow to 8 inches? Please. It seems like above any other pet a person can get in a petstore, fish are given the greatest lack of respect. And it's taught at an early age.
I don't know how many kids I've seen torturing fish and treating them like items, not animals.
And it all starts where? It starts with inaccurate information.
I'm glad things are finally being done to improve the conditions of fishes within pet stores- is it just pet smart that is being addressed?

[shari2]

You have to start somewhere, right? The website explains a bit about 'Why PetSmart'. They actually Do promote responsible husbandry with the mammalian pets they sell, and they do wonderful charity work. They seem to truly care about the pets they sell. That's why we went there first. We hope that we can convince them to apply their ethical principles to the fish as well as the other pets.

What they don't do (and many others also), however, is provide accurate information at their stores in the fish departments. Once we get their attention, and hopefully their cooperation, we will spread the effort. We are just getting started, but so many people (like you!) have the same complaints about pet stores. It is everywhere in aquatic forums. People griping about the bad advice they got here or there...and the dead fish...and the stress and aggravation. It's time we as a collective group try to do something to help ourselves and our fish.

So--write a letter! Or email one that's already on the site. The links and addresses are there. Just needs you to make it happen!

[helen nightingale]

that is a very good site.

i was surprised to see how much better US signage is than UK petsmart (now pets at home). they have seriously downgraded their labelling here recently. i could try and get some photos too. when i last went in, they have new signs up saying how they always advise on the correct species of pet for the customer, always supply and provide the best housing, etc. then i found they have now started to sell goldfish bowls

its good to start with petsmart as so many people have heard of them. itr seems like some beginners are more wary of the smaller chains or independants for some reason

[sully]

thanks Shari. Been a tough couple of weeks in my part of the world.

Send those letters--people will not change unless you ask them.

every letter will help make a difference.

[angelfish83]

Good quality web page. However I disagree with just targeting one chain, I'll chime in later with more..

Excellent site.

[sully]

i disagree with targeting one at some level--lol. I firmly believe that the issue is something for all mass merchandisers to to address. At the same time like we said-have to start somewhere.

We need people to send letters. We are on many, many boards. We have begun an active data acquisition srep. But, there are only so many of us. and we all have jobs--lol. And, we do the NCIAC thing in our spare time. So we do have to focus effort and energy. To spread it across the industry and hobby as a whole right now will assure failure. That is not an option. If we had 10 or 20 volunteers willing to commit 4-6 houurs aday we could do it all at once. But we don't. So we won't.

We hope everyone joins us in taking a first step. When that that builds we will take a second step, and a third. It will take time to encompass all mass merchandisers--we will get there. We have to start at square one though.

[angelfish83]

In my opinion the following should be targeted:

Big Als / Aquarium Services
Pet Smart
Super Pet
PJs pet centers
Wal Mart

[shari2]

Here's a link to the Why PetSmart page on the website. Maybe that will help you to see better why we are beginning there. If we can change their practice, we will have a foothold in to all those other places you've mentioned. The snowball effect...

[sully]

and PetCo, Drs Foster and Smith, Petland.....There are a number of them. It will expand.

Read this page as well. http://www.noclownsinacube.net/retail_information.html

crawl. walk. run.

[sully]

Did anyone receive the e.mail from Linda Scott at PetSmart this week? It will be posted at the NCIAC site as we work through some page layout issues.

the e.mail brought up a topic of "authoritative resource", finally. They used their reference as justification of calling out Clown loaches as a 7" fish. If anyone has photos of their clowns that clearly demonstrate a length beyond 7" (a foot long or larger specimen would be fantastic) that has been tank raised we would love to have them for our discussion on what constitutes and "authoritative resource".

Our Message board has an upload link to a Coppermine Photo Gallery to facilitate the transfer of photos. Or, e.mail them to tjs@mcssupport.com.

We have begun to revisit the site. Seems like we go in circles--lol. We are adding links (Loaches.com is one of them) to a number of sites for various reasons as part of a more permanent nav bar approach. We also have a rough spreadsheet in place on a temporary basis for retailer comparisons to data garnered from FishBase, Planet Catfish. LOL and Mongabay. A stripped down database is being put together for final review. When that is done the Spreadsheet appraoch will vanish and we will get a little more high-tech. Interesting stuff if it is thought about. Every retailer tankes a different approac--Drs. Foster and Smith get my "gold star" so far--lol.

Have a serious need for any photos of BIG Clown Loaches. Will need to be able to have some way to show/document actual TL or SL. Help Us help other hobbyists--it may be slow going at first--we will get the job done. We are in it for the long run.

[pedzola]

I checked out the noclownsinacube website a couple weeks ago.

Some of you are familiar w/the new site I have been working on, and I posted some info on the NoClowns forum as well.

I think that by encouraging people to rate their local fish stores and get info before shopping, there will be a much greater impact on retailer and consumer enlightenment than by simply targeting a single retail chain alone.

Also, individual stores seem to have quite a bit of autonomy inside of certain chains. Some stores are better or worse than others even if they are all petsmarts or petcos, etc.

Anyway I hope people would find fish store ratings and reviews to be of some use!

My site is rudimentary for now, but im willing to make changes once the semester ends if anyone has recommendations.

Heres the link for those who aren't in the know just yet:

www.fishiz.com

- Chris

[sully]

Somebody made a few changes to the site while I was preoccupied over the past few weeks. The link is now back at the top of the forum page--it is the "Signage Gallery" link sort of hidden in the top nav bar. If you can post pictures of larger specimens it would go an incredibly long way in helping us to rationally discuss Responsible Husbandry and Accurate Information with retailers.

Here is a direct link to the Gallery.
http://www.noclownsinacube.net/gallery/index.php

or you can get at it through the forum http://www.noclownsinacube.net/forum/index.php

Any help you can give us would be great! The point we are trying to contradict is that "a Clown Loach will not grow larger than the 7" advertised by PetSmart".

Drs Foster and Smith call out the Clown as a 12" fish. Sort of interesting contradiction. Both will cite "authoritative" resources. Obviously we need to engage management in a discussion about outdated fact and erroneous opinion. regardless of the "authoritative" nature of the resource.

[qumqats]

> . . . snip . . .

Any help you can give us would be great! The point we are trying to contradict is that "a Clown Loach will not grow larger than the 7" advertised by PetSmart".

Drs Foster and Smith call out the Clown as a 12" fish. Sort of interesting contradiction. Both will cite "authoritative" resources. Obviously we need to engage management in a discussion about outdated fact and erroneous opinion. regardless of the "authoritative" nature of the resource.

Are these measurements TL, FL or SL?

It seems that measuring the size of fish is a subjective thing. I look at a picture and say 6", another person says 7". The seller measures on the high end, the buyer measures on the low end!

It always amazes me walking down the fish aisle looking at the cute small fish in the tanks, that I know in a year or two will be tank busting monsters. How many unsuspecting people are there out there?

[sully]

TL. If you can visually represent TL then the SL is simple. Just a question of subtraction. As Time went on yesterday a "general post" was written for sites about the web. Here is an excerpt from that. It even lists more species--lol.

We are soliciting photos from hobbyists of tank reared specimens of certain species. here is what we are after:
•Clown Loach / Botia macracantha / Specimens in excess of 7"TL
•Tin Foil Barb / Barbus schwanenfeldi / Specimens in excess of 8"TL
•Green Terror / Aequidens rivulatus / Specimens in excess of 6" TL
•Midas Cichlid / Amphilophus citrinellus / Specimens in excess of 8" TL
•Oscar Varieties / Astronotus ocellatus / Specimens in excess of 10"TL
•Jack Dempsey / Cichlasoma octofasciatum / Specimens in excess of 6"TL
•Texas Cichlid / Cichlasoma cyanoguttatum / Specimens in excess of 6"TL

We will need to be able to visually verify the TL in the photos. And, information regarding tank size and age of fish would be very beneficial.

If you are gifted with the camera and have the ability to visually document the TL of your fish, but don't have the specimens we listed above, visit our site. Click on the Retailer v. Reality link. Scroll through the list and find the fish with disparities between the retailers and the species information listed. If you have a species with a disparity of significance, take a photo of that species and upload the photos to our gallery.