Help my Clown please

[2 MANY TANKS]

This is my problem!

40 gallon tank, Magium 350 filter, plus one power head, UG filter, Heavily Planted, Gravel not sand. Tank has been up and cycled for almost one year now. W/C's once a week {25%}. 2 half ship decorations. Corner Filter.

I was hospitalized for about one month and my mother was to take care of my many tanks. Unfortunely, there were dead fish in each of my 8 tanks.

I had a lot of Silver Lyre tail Mollies, 3 Clown Loachs {one that I have had for almost 2 years now, 2 smaller ones only had them for 8 months} and a lot of Trumpet snails that are taking over the tank.

The Silver Lyre tail Mollies and the Loaches were best of roommates. The mollies were mulitpling and too many in the tank, so I had the LFS come out and take a bunch of them. Then the ones that were left started dying in a mass suicide groups {5 to 6 at a time} There were a couple of dead Mollies that must have been in there since I was in the hopital in March. The bodies were pretty decaded, must have been in the live plants until I did a W/C and they came floating up to the top. I transferred the last of the Mollies to another tank, leaving just the 3 Clown Loaches.

Tested the Water and found the nitrITES were off the chart. Did a couple of large W/C's using Prime Dechlorinator.

Prime says that 10X the amount can be used when high nitrITES, nitrATES are pressent, so dumped a bunch in. NitrITES went to -0- but noticed that my Large and older Clown Loach was "in" one half of one of the ships, nose up, tail down, swimming hard to stay in that possition {like the picture of the ones that are doing the mating dance}.

Then the next day, one of the smaller ones joined the larger one in the same small space, doing the same thing. I added Melafix to the tank and it seemed to help the small one, as it came out of the ship and is now swimming with the other small one. But the Large one, now out of the Ship is on the bottom of the tank laying on it's side {I know that they sleep that way} but this one didn't try to move when I put my hand in the tank. I even touched and stroked it. It's skin has a white haze to it, it is breathing very rapid. It doesn't look like a fungus, it is a clear white film all over it's body. It's mouth is wide open, no fungus on the mouth. Water tempature was at 76 but after I noticed, it is now at 82.

Water chemistry, nitrITES-0-, nitrATES-20-, Ph was at-6.4 but after adding 2 tablespoons of Baking Soda to the water, it is now at 7.2 and that is after I have done 2 -25% W/C's because of the actions of the bigger Clown Loach.

I have been feeding some blood worms and BBS {baby brine shrimp, I thought that the sick ones would only have to swallow to get food instead of hunting and chasing it.

There are bubbles on the top of the water but though that it is just because I had put Melafix in the tank.

I have done W/C's every day since the 2 were acting sick {4 days now} but don't want to throw the tank into a mini cycle. Now the only one that is still acting very ill is the one that I have had the longest and is the oldest. I don't want him to die but don't know what to do for it.

I do have some Anti-fungal stuff put out by Fungus-Pro {natural fish Pharmaceuticals}. I don't know if I should use it because of the other 2 that seem to be healthy.

Sorry for the long post but didn't want to leave out any important information. And sure would like to help my poor sick one

[Emma Turner]

Hi there and welcome to Loaches Online.

Sorry to hear about the problem in your tank.

Whilst I can't help with regards to treatments/products you are using (hopefully someone will chime in on that quickly for you) I would advise to step up the aeration in the tank as it sounds as if the fish are struggling for oxygen.

Drop the water level by an inch or so, so that the water returning from the filter splashes down onto the surface and imparts a churning effect, and angle any powerhead nozzles upwards, again to create movement at the surface.

Unfortunately, with the fish already showing signs of problems, the sudden increase in temperature and pH may have stressed them further. Also, have you re-tested for ammonia?

Good luck,

Emma

[KLKelly]

Editing my post as Emma replied

I don't know how clowns react to large water changes. I would do at least 50% a day (dechlorinated/temp/ph matched)

I know that some fish have excess slime coat when they are very stressed (from unhappy water) and sick. I wonder if clowns do also?

I hate to bring up the dreaded salt idea - but if they've been living in nitrites for any length of time - would this be recommended or just get the water back to being happy?

What do you guys think?

Best of luck. Glad you are out of the hospital and sorry about your fish

[2 MANY TANKS]

Oh No!

I just did another 10% W/C and checked the nitrITES.

I did what I was afraid I was going to do.

NitrITES -.25-

[2 MANY TANKS]

To add to my post, I added a small net full of Marine Salt to their tank.

I have the net hanging in the water so that the salt can disolve slowly.

I too am not a great one for using salt, especially the Aquarium salt that you can purchase at the LFS but was introduced to Marine Salt {the kind used in Salt Water tanks} and it has so much more to offer the fish then the Aquarium Salt. It sure keeps the fungus at bay in my over crowed Guppy tank

[mikev]

Hi,

Sorry to hear about your problem.

A couple of comments on Prime / Nitrites:

The bottle of Prime in front of me states 5x. I remember seeing 4x elsewhere. Never saw 10x. In fact, I have some evidence that a rapid removal of nitrites may be more dangerous than nitrites themselves, it may create a condition similar to osmotic shock in clowns. This in term will lead to the breakdown of the immune system.

You did not say just how high nitrites were in your tank, so I cannot be sure if this is a factor.

Now, 0.25 nitrite reading you see now is not very dangerous to most fish by itself. You can remove it with Prime (just don't overdose too much), or add a little Meth Blue but perhaps the Salt you already added is sufficient. Either Meth Blue or Salt detoxes nitrites.

As Emma said, extra O2 always helps.

Good luck.

[chefkeith]

Besides the obvious Nitrites problem, I'm concerned about a few other things. Adjusting pH with baking soda can be a tricky thing. You're not really adjusting the pH, your raising the kH, and that in turn raises the pH.
Raising the kH won't hurt fish much, but lowering it can be harmful to fish. So if you ever do a water change and forget to add the baking soda to the source water, you might drop the kH, and harm the fish.

pH is the most misunderstood part of aquatic water chemistry. Trying to match it can be trivial because it's almost meaningless without knowing why it is what it is. Factors of pH include kH (which raises it), tannic acid from driftwood (which lowers it), CO2 (which lowers it), aeration (which raises it because it removes some CO2), fish waste (which lowers it).

Also, pH will change throughout the day based on photosysthesis. In other words, pH will be higher when lights are on because plants consume CO2 and produce O2. At night when the lights are off, it's the opposite, the plants consume O2 and produce CO2, which makes pH drop.

In my main tanks (plants/algae) the daily pH cycles. It drops from 7.4 to 6.8, then back up due to photosynthesis. Nothing is wrong with my pH though, and the fish don't even know that pH has adjusted because the mineral levels have stayed the same.

You really should get a TDS meter so that you can closer monitor the mineral levels that you're adjusting. You shouldn't add minerals, unless you know the tank absolutely needs them. Marine salt should never be used in a fresh water tank with clown loaches. Never ever. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Mollies might like a brackish environment, but clown loaches don't.

Don't remove the Marine Salt now though. You'll have to very very slowly (one drip at a time) acclimate the clowns back to a non-salt environment.

[2 MANY TANKS]

The chart that I have for the reading of the nitrITES, the last color is a Purple-5.0-, Well the color that the test came out was a deaper Purple then that.

Come to think about it, the nitrITES did disappear the next morning. I think that you are right about the ammount that can be added. I got the information from one of the employees at the LFS. He seems as if he really knows his stuff, but he is no longer there and the ones that are there had no idea of why a Clown would be swimming like that.

As far as the ammonia goes, I have the carbon and ammonia crystals in the corner filter so I have no ammonia reading, that is why I test the nitrITES. Even thou the crystals keep the ammonia away, it does not help with the nitrITES.

I have a power head that gives off air bubbles, a corner filter that gives off air bubbles, and I have a bubble wond in therE. I have so many live plants in there, that it is the only tank that the plants are thriving. So I make sure that all air supplies are working so that my water living friends have air.

It is soooooooo strange, one of my young ones {about 3" long} is uneffected by all of this. I turned out the lights and had just the living room light lighting up the tank, I noticed that he was out and about and he looked okay.

I understand that salt does not take care of the nitrITES, but nitrITES do cause brown blood which is a thickening of the blood, and just like in humans, salt thins the blood, so putting salt in the tank will help at least from getting the brown blood {fingers crossed} until I can get the nitrITES under control.

I guess there is nothing more I can do. I hope that he makes it okay and what ever it is, he will get over it.

I am hoping that the jump in the nitrITES like you posted hasn't harmed them too badly.

Thanks for the help!

[2 MANY TANKS]

My 2 loaches started staying in the ship swimming in the odd way and that is when I checked the Ph.

I know that baking soda only gives a quick fix to the Ph but thought that maybe bringing up the Ph would help.

I have 8 tanks and the Ph in every one is different. Some stay at 7.2 some are at 7.6 and the majority of them get as low at 6.2. I have put crushed coral and used the stuff that raises Ph slowly, not the Ph up stuff, can't remember the name, it is used when you set up a cichlids tank.

My poor old one has been through so much, he just has to make it one more time.

[2 MANY TANKS]

So now I really have no idea of what is going on with my tank. I just hope that my Clown Loach can handle what ever it is.

I was preparing to do a small W/C this morning as the nitrITES came out to be a .25 last night before I went to bed and after doing about 3 previous W/C's, I was worried that "any" kind of nitrITE would harm my water living friend even more but took a nitrITE test and low and behold, it came out -0-.

I know that Marine Salt does not do anything to rid the tank of nitrITES, but that is the only thing that I added to the water after the W/C last night!

I had run out of my favorite dechlornator and had no more Prime left but always have a bottle of Genesis on hand, so I had added 10 drops to dechlorate the water.

The Ph is holding at 7.4 after doing 5 W/C's in a matter of 4 days.

I just don't understand what is going on in that tank. If I mess with it in "any" way, I thow off the water chemistry and my poor water living friends suffer. I have a 50gal that is the same way {Molly tank}. All of my other tanks are fine and have had no problems with them in over a year. So you can see my delima. Now one of my oldest Clown Loaches is suffering for it.

I do have a 155gal tank that I can transfer all three of the Clowns into but there are a couple of YoYo loaches in that tank that are pretty honery and I don't know if the two different kinds of Loaches will get along?

I have 4 Clown Loaches in my 55gal Community tank along with about 5 Kribs {male and females} that seem to be getting along. If the Clowns get into the Kribs territory, they just chase them away. One of the Clowns in that tank {community tank} is about 8" big so to put more Clowns in there, would be too much for that small tank.

I am talking about putting 2 different kinds of Loaches in with a very Large Bala {about a foot long from nose to tip of tail} and 3 tinfoils that are the same size if not bigger {all are what my friends call plate size, LoL} plus there are the 2 YoYo Loaches and a bristle nose pleco in that tank. That tank has only been set up and cycled for about 6 months now so don't want to put my Clowns in a tank that they would have been better off leaving in the mystery tank.

I just checked the tank and both of the Clown Loaches that were swimming funny and not looking so good were dead. I guess I will never know what went wrong. One was am old guy about 4" big and the other was a young guy about 2" big. There is one lone survivor about 2" big.

Now comes the question of-----Since the water chemistry is fine now and there is only one Clown Loach left in the tank, and I know that they are a social water living friend, should I get a couple more Clowns to put in the tank with him? Along with some other kind of water living friends?

When I pulled the 2 out that were dead, their bodies were really slimmy and the slime stayed on my hand, does that have anything to do with their death?

Does anyone know what went wrong so that I won't do what ever I did again?

To re-cap; All was well with the 40gal long, Maginum 350 filter along with an U/G filter with power head and a corner filter. Tank was housing a lot of Silver Lyre Tail Mollies and 3 Clown Loaches. All were doing great, until I went to the hospital for Open heart surgery, leaving my Mother in charge of my tanks.

Came home to at least one dead friend in "every" one of my tanks. The Mollies kept dying and once I was able clean their tank, there were dead bodies of the Mollies in there that must have been in there for a long time, as their bodies were pretty decaded. Then after taking out all of the Mollies and leaving just the 3 Clown Loaches, a month later, the 2 Loaches started swimming oddly.

Tested the Ph, I thought that it was toooooooooo low {6.2} for them so did a quick fix by putting baking soda in the tank. The nitrITES were at a 5.0+ so started doing 25% W/C's. I had put in some Melaflix when the 2 started acting strange. I had done at least 5 W/C's in 4 days, last night, the nitrITES read out to be .25 but this morning was at -0-, the Ph held at 7.4 but my two guys have died. One lonely guy left in a tank all to himself. He is swimming around okay and looks fine.

What in the heck is going on in that tank? Does anyone know? I don't want to get some more friends to put in there for the one lone survivor, but don't want to leave him in there by himself. What to do?

[loachmom]

Hi TOO MANY TANKS,

Sounds like your having a time of it. I don't know what killed your clowns. I'm still pretty new to all this.

I have high pH from my tap--about 7.4-7.6. I also keep clown loaches. In the beginning, I was always trying to adjust my pH by adding sodium biphosphate and "ph down." I read in several places that the fish will do better if you leave the pH alone (unless it is drastically high or low), instead of constant fluctuations. So that is the route I have taken; I use my well-water straight from the tap, as is. My fish seem to be thriving. I wish I could provide the 'ideal' pH for them, but I can't seem to right now.

I hope you get things figured out.

I believe that you can keep clowns and yo-yos together, also.


And, Welcome to the forum!

[2 MANY TANKS]

Thank You for the Welcome. Just wish it could have been under better conditions.

I always feel so badly when ever I lose any of my Water Living Friends. I feel as if I could have done more to save them, like not purchase them, as they have clean tanks and are alive in the LFS.

I have stopped trying to care for Betta's because they only last 6 months in the homes {tanks} that I set up for them, so figure that they are better off left live at the LFS.

Right now, I feel so badly for my one lone survivor, I want to get him a friend but I don't know what is going on in that tank and don't want to bring a friend home that will shortly die. I am surprised that the has made it through what ever it is that has happened.

The 155gal tank that has the YoYo loaches in it also has "very" large Bala, and Tinfoils in there, so don't know if the small {3"} will be over whelmed by them? Am just setting up the tank as it is only a couple of months cycled now, so Live plants are sparce and hiding places are few. With the large Bala and Tinfoils, it is hard to put anything in tank as they will chase each other and knock over any tall decoration, and they will eat the live plants I have put in there because I also have 6 Gaint Danio's {forgot about them} in there that will scatter their eggs on the plants.

I think that I will try to get a couple more Clowns to start with to put in there with the lone survivor. It has to be pretty lonily in there all by his self. Poor guy, but at least he made it through what ever it was that killed the other 2.

[Total Package]

Personally, I wouldn't worry about the pH really. As long as it's moderately stable/slowly changing, anything around 6.5-7.5 isn't going to be a problem at all. I've never had trouble keeping fish in pH ranges outside of their "ideal" range. My loaches (yoyos, striata, and kubotai) are in water that's around pH 8.0 now after I've moved to my new location and are more active than ever. I just point it out because I don't think it's super critical.

I imagine that the rapid change in water parameters is could have stressed the fish even more. I had a similar sort of thing happen when I came home after being away and the tank was in horrible shape. I did large very water changes and put in fresh water and THAT caused alot of trouble. I learned the hard way.

It's hard to tell though if this is really what caused it since high nitrItes are bad to begin with, so they did need to be brought down.

[doglover_50]

To tag team on the prior two posts--I would worry about a rapid and significant change in pH more so than the pH not being in an "ideal" range right now. I think you raise the problem of doing more harm than good if you do a drastic and significant change in pH to get it quickly down (or up).

I keep reef tanks, so I'll advise you his (assuming you are going to add salt--I'll avoid whether or not you should--I do not in my loach tanks). I would absolutely NOT introduce salt in the way you have. Best would be mix it up in water with a powerhead in a seperate container (the old stirring spoon works well too); then leave it with aerator or powerhead for numerous hours, if not overnight. The damage can be that salt that is not well mixed in water and still crystalized in water (and itakes up to 12-24 hours to fully dissolve) will aggravate the gills of your fish, and you don't want that!

Hope everything turns out ok.

[2 MANY TANKS]

I have no idea of why that tank and my other 50 gallon tank changes its water chemistry as fast as it does every time I do a W/C or clean the filter {magnium 350}. I know not to do both on the same day so I will do one and then the other on the day after. Each timee the nitrITES will head up to .25 and some times .50. Both tanks have been set up and cycled for at least 8 months if not longer, both are heavily live planted. both have an U/G filter with power heads, both have magnium 350 {love those filters}, both have bubble wonds on them, the only thing that they have different is the friends that are living in them, or at least trying too. One has Silver Lyre tail Mollies, and the other has my Clown Loach in it. Plus, both are being over run with Trumpit snails. I will spend hours taking handfulls of them out just about every night.

After keeping different kinds of Water friends and different size tanks for about 10 years now, I know better then to adjust the Ph or mess with it, but it worries me when my friends become ill and the Ph is soooooooooo low. That is when I don't listen to myself and doe the adjusting.

The water in the tank with the lone surviver is back to being normal, nitrITES-0-, nitrATES -20, and the Ph is holding at 7.4, no ammonia reading but since using the ammonia crystals, I have never had any ammonia reading.

I went to the LFS and purchased 2 more Clown Loaches and 5 "Red Phatom Tetra's"to put in there. You should have seen the survivor, the new ones are half his size so at first I didn't know if he liked them or not as when they found him, they were all around him. The Tetra's are so small or the tank is sooooooo big for them, that I find it hard to find them unless it is feeding time. I guess I am just going to be purchasing more and bigger {not tooooooooo big} friends to go in there.

So far all are doing okay.

Thanks for all of your imput and helping me. It is just soooooo odd that 2 would be effected and the 3 one show no signs of anything.

I have a 55 gallon that was and has now become again very full of Guppies. Fungus and death was running rapid through that tank. I went to another LFS here because the one closest to my house didn't have the medication that I was told to get. That is when the owner told me that for one the Ph was way toooooooooo low {6.2} and the second, I should use Marine Salt in the tank. I says to use the whole bag to salt a 55 gallon tank but since I was not going to turn the tank into a salt water tank, he told me to use the small brine shrimp nets, fill them with the marine salt, let it just set in the water on the top letting the salt desolve slowly.

I had a heck of a time getting the Ph up, to which that was what I was told to use, but finally got it to hold at 7.2. After putting the Marine salt in the tank as directed, I noticed that the ones with the fungus were getting better and the ones that didn't have any, didn't get any, so I have used it in my Guppy tank ever since.

I was also told by a man that use to own his own place in California that "all" water living friends can handle some Marine salt and because I once had some of the mollies {mollies like salted water} in with the Clown loaches, I put in the salt. My Clown's did okay so figured it was safe.

When ever those 2 tanks get a real high nitrITE level, I will do a W/C and then put in Bio-Spria so that I won't have to do W/C's every day, plus the Bio-Spria keeps the friends safe from harm.

Once again, thanks and if anyone can tell me why those two tank will be thrown into a mini cycle the day after cleaning, weather it is just the filter, or the vaccuuming of the gravel, I sure would like to know.