Help my Clown please

[mikev]

The chart that I have for the reading of the nitrITES, the last color is a Purple-5.0-, Well the color that the test came out was a deaper Purple then that.

You can measure off the chart nitrites by mixing the tank water with tap in different proportions. Mixing 1:10 allows to reasonably measure nitrites up to 50.0, and with high nitrite values you really need only an estimate, not the exact value.

As I said before, quick reduction in nitrite levels seems to be extremely dangerous to clowns and you are likely to lose some either immediately or soon after. It appears that the best course of action is to try to reduce the nitrites very slowly over days. Less sensitive fish can be moved to other tanks.

Come to think about it, the nitrITES did disappear the next morning.

Then your nitrites were not that high to start with, or you did not measure correctly, or you really seriously overdosed on Prime.... You cannot bring an off-the-chart value to 0 overnight.

As far as the ammonia goes, I have the carbon and ammonia crystals in the corner filter so I have no ammonia reading, that is why I test the nitrITES. Even thou the crystals keep the ammonia away, it does not help with the nitrITES.

Ammonia crystals == ammochips ?

I'm not aware of any product that will fully suppress ammonia in a tank without a biocycle and with some bioload.... they will only reduce ammonia or convert it into a less toxic form.

I understand that salt does not take care of the nitrITES, but nitrITES do cause brown blood which is a thickening of the blood, and just like in humans, salt thins the blood, so putting salt in the tank will help at least from getting the brown blood {fingers crossed} until I can get the nitrITES under control.

I guess there is nothing more I can do. I hope that he makes it okay and what ever it is, he will get over it.

Meth Blue does the same thing as salt. It is hard to say which one is really better (Meth Blue is easier on Fish but harder on the biofilter), but this is another option.

I am hoping that the jump in the nitrITES like you posted hasn't harmed them too badly.
...
It is just soooooo odd that 2 would be effected and the 3 one show no signs of anything.

Sorry to learn that it did, as I feared.

It is a bit odder than this even. In a situation I witnessed, 2 were affected seriously than the other 4 (don't have any doubts -- they ALL were affected) and I knew what made these two different. But the stats are not sufficient for any claims.

[Diana]

Hi, 2 Many Tanks.
I have a few ideas, and some thoughts. I do not know if these are linked to the deaths in your tank.

You were in the hospital when the first deaths happened? And the fish were not removed?
Decaying fish produce much more ammonia and use more oxygen decaying than when they were alive. Ammonia goes up, perhaps filling and overwhelming the ammonia removing crystals you use, and the small nitrifying bacteria population cannot grow fast enough, so ammonia spikes when you are not there to see it. Bacteria grows, fed by dead fish, and turns Ammonia into Nitrite. The bacteria responsible for turning Nitrite into Nitrate is slower growing, so the nitrite spike lingers until you get home from the hospital

pH in this tank was less than neutral when this happened.
Ammonia is in its less toxic form when the pH is acidic. At higher pH the ammonia is more toxic. You added baking soda to raise the pH. (in fact, raising the KH, which in turn raised the pH) Probably moved some of the ammonia (if any was left, I think there was) to the more toxic form. Not by much, but enough to bother the fish. pH drops in an aquarium that has organic matter accumulating somewhere. Often it is accompanied by high Nitrates.

You began water changes.
On the whole, this is the best thing you could have done. Removing the toxins from the water, the dead fish, and so on is the right thing to do. All the normal cautions apply, of course: New water needs to be similar to the tank water for temperature, GH, KH, salinity and pH. If your water needs to be aged for whatever reason, do that. This is so not only the fish (which can tolerate small changes) but also the nitrifying bacteria will not be shocked.

You saw a reading for Nitrites
Nitrates cause brown blood disease. This means that the blood cannot carry oxygen very well, and the fish suffer from lack of oxygen. (If I spell it right, google Methamglobinuria for more info) Adding Sodium Chloride can reduce the problem. Chloride prevents the Nitrite from crossing the gills and getting into the blood. As small a dose as 1 teaspoon of salt (sodium chloride) per 20 gallons is enough to help the fish. Water changes to reduce the Nitrite are required. Adding Prime can help, but do the water changes first so the Nitrite is as low as possible before adding salt and Prime. Continue testing, and repeat water changes as needed, re-dosing the salt to maintain the level of 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons. Salt can be aquarium salt, table salt, Kosher salt, pickling salt... Sodium Chloride is the active ingredient. It should be well dissolved in water before adding it to the tank.

You added Marine Salt to a tank with low pH, and no salt.
Part of the problem is the pH when Ammonia is present in the tank. Otherwise, changes in pH in and of themselves are not usually an issue, as long as these changes are within the fishes' normal range of tolerance. It is the other chemistry changes that often happen in conjunction with pH changes that can cause problems. Marine salt has a LOT of other minerals in it. Mixing it with fresh water raises the GH (General Hardness; Calcium, Magnesium) KH (Carbonates, at this pH) and in general the Total Dissolved Solids (TDS). This can be quite a problem for the fish. They are metabolically geared to handle fresh water, low TDS, pH somewhere close to neutral. They can handle a range of conditions, as long as the change happens slowly, but overnight is not slowly, in the case of this change. A fish already under stress is likely not maintaining its osmotic balance very well, and throwing it for a loop like this could be what pushed them over the edge. The Mollies and other Livebearers might have tolerated this event; they have evolved to handle hard, alkaline, even brackish water. The Clowns are not set up to handle it. While Clown Loaches can live in hard, alkaline water, they were probably acclimated to it much slower, like over a month or so. They are not brackish water fish. /i]

UGF, Ammonia removing crystals.
I do not like them, so take this part with a grain of salt. Marine salt, if you like.

UGF is NOT a FILTER. It is a way of hiding the dirt 'under the rug' where it decomposes. Ultimately it becomes a sort of fertilizer storehouse for plants. In the process a lot of decomposing happens. The unhappiest tanks I have kept have been aquariums with UGF set ups.

Ammonia removing crystals are starving your nitrifying bacteria. The population is low, because there is not much to feed on. When the crystals are full, the bacteria start to grow, but then you change the crystals, starving the bacteria. Net result is that when you need a boost in the bacteria population, there is such a small population, there is no cushion to fall back on.

Fish with slime coat problems are often reacting to water chemistry issues.
Slime coat is one way fish have that protects them from some of the changes in water chemistry, helps them to maintain their osmotic balance by reducing the amount of water that leaves or enters the fish through their skin. Salt is one stimulant to slime coat growth.

Restocking: I would remove the UGF from this tank, and the ammonia removing crystals. Depend on live plants and nitrifying bacteria to do the job. After so many ups and downs, give the tank a rest, let it stabilize over a month or so, get some plants growing, then start restocking. You can get the fish, but they go in a quarantine tank, anyway, not the main tank. By the time you are sure the new fish are disease and parasite free, the main tank will have had enough water changes to remove the salt and minerals, and will have shown stable readings for several weeks. Otherwise, do not trust it to keep the fish healthy.

Why does this tank show such swings in water chemistry when you clean the filter or do a water change?
Pure conjecture on my part, but I think you do not have a stable ecosystem established here. When there is some disruption, the change is affecting a large percent of the microorganisms, and they cannot stabilize the system because their population is too small. You are stirring up stuff that was becoming settled, and somewhat out of the water column, and there is not the reserves of bio-filter to handle the issues.

[2 MANY TANKS]

Milky;
I think that I had put toooooooooo much Prime in that tank as I didn't messure it, just dumped it in. I was afraid of loosing my old guy too which I did anyway.

I had done a nitrITE test and it had turned out a brown, also as if I had used the Ph test drops insead of the nitrITE drops, so I did it again. I had even taken some of the water to the LFS to tell them that their nitrITE test kit was bad, even took my nitrITE test drops with me.

I never thought about the ammonia crystals {they look like the carbon stuff only white} are starving the nitrifying bacteria. I couldn't understand just how I could get no ammonia reading, but the nitrITES were there. I have always thought that were there was nitrITES there was ammonia.

I guess I must have really must have made their last days pretty terrible for them. Instead of making them well and happy again, I was killing them. Now I really feel bad, poor guys.

Diana;
I use to just test the water in my tanks before I did any kind of W/C. The only time that I would do any kind of W/C is if all of the test came out okay, but the nitrATES were above 40.

But then when the owner came out to set up my 155 gallon tank for me and to transfer the water friends in there for me, he told me that I should be doing a 25% W/C every week. I asked him if he knew just what that was going to do to my water bill, doing a 25% W/C on that 155 gallon "every"week LoL!

Unfortunely, I started doing 25% W/C's once a week, without even testing. So maybe I was taking out too much of the good stuff.

Here I thought I knew a lot about fish keeping, but sounds like I have just begun.

[Diana]

I do even larger water changes than that, regularly. Part of the idea is that conditions in the aquariums do not drift too far away from tap water chemistry, so after only a week, the tank is similar enough that I can do large changes.
I do not use Activated Carbon, Ammonia removing crystals (or other things like them), or Under Gravel Plates.
I do use a dechlorinator that breaks apart the chloramine bond, then locks up that much ammonia. (It is a pond care product called Chloramine Buster, by Clear Pond)
Most of my tanks are heavily planted, and I add fertilizers for the plants.
There are even times when I add Nitrates so the plants are not starving.
Some tanks get salt and minerals to make them into brackish (2 tanks), and Lake Tanganyika tanks (3 tanks). They get measured amounts, dissolved before the water change in a garbage can, usually set up the night before, and kept circulating with a small pump, and I add an aquarium heater if the house is cool.

There are other things in the water besides Nitrates that water changes remove. One of the items is a hormone that some species of fish produce that regulates the growth of the fish in the pond/lake/aquarium.
Another is a hormone that some schooling fish produce when they are stressed. It alerts the other fish in the school that something (perhaps a predator) is near. If I did water changes only when the Nitrate test said to, I would almost never do water changes. I did try stretching it out to 2 weeks between changes, and the fish were not happy. Lethargic, poor color, all very minor, but I could tell. I increased the water changes, and the fish perked right up.

A weekly water change is less water than a person taking one more shower a week, for a 55 gallon tank. Negligible. Check your water bill. Often it is measured in cubic feet. There are 7.5 cubic feet per gallon.

I just looked at my water bill. Today's price of water (for me, anyway) is less than a penny a gallon.
I am not going to spend MORE money on medicines, remedies, water purifiers, and whatnot, (and new fish if the old ones die of bad water), when water changes are so cheap, and fix so many problems.

I am starting with very good quality water, but even if I had to do more preparation to make the water the way I wanted it, (RO system, longer prep time...) I would continue with lots of water changes.

[MTS]

Perhaps the underground filter may be your problem. How long do you turn off your power-heads to the UG filter when you clean the tank? It seems that when you do water changes, you are killing your good bacteria. When the bacteria die, not only does it stop your cycle but also it increases the toxic waste in the tank and probably causes the rapid changes in chemistry.

I highly recommend bio-wheel filters like the Emperors. Perhaps someone from the forum that uses UG filtration can speak more to keeping the UG filter healthy.

[helen nightingale]

Perhaps someone from the forum that uses UG filtration can speak more to keeping the UG filter healthy.

FREQUENT gravel hoovering! UG filters are very hard work! im glad i dont have one any more. clean sections at a time, rather than the whole of the tank, to make sure you leave plenty of bacteria. you cant just rely on nitrate readings to tell when to hoover the gravel, as that could leave the substrate too mucky for bottom dwellers, especially fish that like to shuffle about in the substrate.

Best wishes for getting the tank sorted, 2 many tanks. dont forget that everyone makes the occasioanl mistake, and we all feel bad about it. at least you have found the best place to learn and get advice on loaches. welcome

i would definately agree that the best thing to do would be to let the tank settle down for a while before restocking. i hope all goes well for you next time.

and i hope you are better after you time in hospital, too.

[2 MANY TANKS]

I usually do W/C's on all my tanks at least once a week, I do the nitrATE test to see just how much water that I need to take out, either 10% or 25%. And if I have to do a very good gravel clean or just part of a one.

I have U/G filters in all of my tanks, it is just the 2 tanks {1/50gal long and 1/40gal long} that I seem to have all of the trouble with sending the nitrITES sky high when ever I clean their filter or do a water change. I just don't understand why, they have been up and cycle for 8 months and longer.

I have tried to get rid of the U/G filter, but can't keep up with the W/C's needed to keep the water chemistry right.

I don't shut down the power heads at any time unless I do a W/C that brings the water level down past it which is usually a 50% change.

I have at least 3" of gravel on top of the U/G filter so the gunk gets sucked down far enough that the bottom dewellers don't have to deal with it.

I feel so badly for the one lonily survivor being in the tank all by himself. I keep testing the water and all of the test come out okay so it has me want to put the new ones in with him and out of their hospital tank.

I am doing much better now that I am home and the surgery is over. Every thing is going okay with the new heart valve and I am able to get back to taking care of my water living friends like I use too.

Thanks for every ones help and I am glad that I found this forum to come too for help.

[mikev]

Milky;
I think that I had put toooooooooo much Prime in that tank as I didn't messure it, just dumped it in. I was afraid of loosing my old guy too which I did anyway.

Just don't call me "Milky".....

In a situation very similar to yours I did the following: measured the amount of Nitrites carefully, measured the amount of Prime required to detox them, then went to a coffee shop so I can plan the best strategy without looking at the tank.

I did not make your mistake, but I did make another... so I ended up with losses too. Sadly, this is how we learn, some stuff is simply not written anywhere, and we have to fail before we know.

As for the UG filter: it is indeed a major source of dirt. IMHO, the only type of tank where UG is ok is a very clean tank with relatively low bioload, like a hillstream tank.

When UG is combined with heavily polluting fish: gf, plecos, large danios or barbs,... it is just not a good idea.

As for the WC: it is generally better to change fixed reasonable amount of water at fixed intervals than adjust WC to respond to readings.

Good luck with your fish and your health!

[2 MANY TANKS]

Sorry about the Milky instead of the mikev. At a very quick glance I just, well, made a mistake.

I guess I will try taking out the U/G filter one more time.

I had Silver Lyre Tail mollies in there along with the Clown Loaches and when the Mollies started having Little Ones, doing a gravel vac was a scary thing for me, as I was afraid to suck up one of them. Guppies will come to the top of the water that is in the buck that I use for W/C's but I don't think that Mollies do? So I would always do a very light gravel vac.

With the tank being heavily planted, I didn't want to gravel vac to well so maybe there is a build up of gunk under there, the plants are doing fantastic, LoL, I have to keep cutting them back and putting them in the other tnks.

So do you think that the 2 that died, died from a bacterial infection, or from nitrITE posioning? Why did the one live with no ill effects?

It is all still a mystery!

Maybe along with taking out the U/G filter, I should take most of the plants out as well?

[helen nightingale]

this is just speculation!

i am very prone to chest infections, my fiancee is prone to sinusitis, and other people get some other sort of illness very easily. maybe fish have things they as individuals find easier to fight off than others?

it could depend on what conditions the individuals have been subject to throught their lives. very early stages of whitespot affect the gills, before the fish gets spots. maybe some fish have had underlying whitespot and have slightly damaged gills, so in a situation that could comprimise gill function and respiration, these fish would suffer more than other fish that hadnt had such expose to whitespot. you never know whether your fish have always been 100% healthy before you had them. all sorts of things like this could mean that one fish pulled through when the others died. it could also be that the living fish was affected, but the sypmtoms just were not visible to you (im not saying you are not observant here!), just as people can have cancer without it being noticed for some time sometimes.


personally, i wouldnt take too many plants out, especailly as they are doing well. they will help to keep the nitrates down and give the fish somewhere to hide and help him feel more sequre.

[mikev]

So do you think that the 2 that died, died from a bacterial infection, or from nitrITE posioning? Why did the one live with no ill effects?

One effect of nitrite poisoning is that the immune system shuts down. At which point infections that are normally easily resisted may kill the animals. Then there is the shock. It is all interlinked (shock contributes to lower resistance) so it is not possible to say what is the exact cause.

[2 MANY TANKS]

Thanks everyone! I guess survivor will be a mystery as to why he lived.

After a few days of being in the hospital tank, I introduced the new ones to the tank. 6 "Red Tail Phatom's" and 2 smaller Clown Loaches.

All seems to be going okay but the tank is toooooooooo big for such little Water friends. I know that the Clown's will be getting bigger so I won't be getting any more of them for that tank, but the Red Tail Phatom's are so little that unless it is feeding time, I can't find them. I will be getting more friends to put in that tank but want to make sure that all get along and I don't want to put any more in there until things settle down.

Thanks

Does anyone know what kind of Loach will eat the Trumpet Snails? All my tanks are being over run with them.

[mikev]

Helen made a very good point above.

In my case, both affected clowns had prior medical history. The others did not.

Watch the survivor for a couple of months for disease signs and strange behavior....I did and I still panick when I see things like this:



(no, he is fine... I think)

[crazy loaches]

One thing to consider before completely removing UGF is to convert it to RUGF (reverse UGF). In this setup an elbow is used coming out the front of your powerheads and redirecting the flow straight down - into the lift tubes down under the plates and up through the gravel bed. Many have switched to this and wouldnt go back. Seems to work well with plants too. Your bacteria supposedly populate from the bottom up, where they are less likely to be disturbed. And no more sucking crud down in, instead it will push it up and out of the gravel where other filters can better remove it.

Just an idea.

[2 MANY TANKS]

"Oh----My-----Gosh" mikev. If I were to see any of my Clown Loaches sleeping like that, I would have my hand in the tank right away and the log would be gone.

I have a 55 gallon that has 3 Clown Loaches in there, of different ages and sizes, and they all cram themselves in a small castel that is in there.

I have 5 Kribs that are in there, and when I was feeding the crew in that tank, the Clowns will be chased by them. The Kribs have deamed one side of the tank as theirs so when the Clowns get over into their territory, they get chased away.

My biggest Clown in that tank is about 9" big, another is about 7" big and the 3rd is about 6" big. I have noticed that the one that is 7" big is not as bright {not brain wise, LoL but color} the yellow on him is becoming a dark color. Another is getting more spots on him, when I got him, he only had one black spot but now he has 3.

I have 2 ceramic logs in there, but the Kribs has claimed them.

I guess they are happy and healthy. They must be at least 4 years old now, or maybe I should say that is how long that I have had them.

I have 4 Zibra loaches. 2 in a 30gal tank with a MoM and PoP Krib. The loaches are out and about all the time. Then I have the other 2 in a 50gal tank with the Silver tail Mollies and they are hiding "all" the time in the castel. My question is, are they suppose to hide like that all day? They were out and about all the time. After doing a W/C, they now hide in the castel all the time. Water Chemistry--Ammonia-0-, nitrITES-0-, nitrATES-20.

Okay, another problem has arisen. The 2 Zibra Loahes in the 50gal with the Mollies are missing

I looked in the castel, even took a flash light and looked in there, no bodies are to be found.

I have a hood on the tank, and lights, I have even covered the top back with of the tank with Plastic because this old house has a lot of dust that accumulates, just 24 hours after I dust, so there is no way that they could have jumped out of the tank, besides, I looked all around the tank.

The one survivor is now swimming up and down in one corner of the tank, like he has gone crazy. I hope that is not a sign that he is sick? When I go up to the tank, he will swim away to the other side of the tank and hide so it is not as if he is doing it all the time but he is doing it a lot.

I guess my luck at keeping loaches is not very good according to the track record.