I've had my Khuli loach for over 2 1/2 years now. The little guy usually hangs out hiding in one of my plants - he spends 90% of his time there and has been in the same spot for years. He's be healthy and steadily growing over the years. I'm worried that as of this morning when I woke up he's been getting very sick now.
His body still looks great. Muscular and clean with no spots, abrasions or anything.
The problem is that he's left his hiding spot, is breathing very rapidly, rests lying on one side and does these circular swimming spasms.
I don't know what could be wrong with him.
In the tank I have about 1/2 dozen assorted plants. In it I have a half a dozen live assorted plants, 7 neon tetras, 3 flame tetras, a molly, two swords, two ADFs, a pleco, a chinese algea eater, the khuli loach, a gold dojo (weather) loach, 2 mystery snails and a little shrimp (I can't remember the type).
The most recent addition to the tank are the two snails which I got a little over a week ago. As of this morning I thought one was still alive, but the other might be dead. After I got them they walked around the tank for a couple of hours but then closed up and haven't come out since (though they've both poked out occasionally). I was told to let them be (since this isn't uncommon for these snails) but a day ago, one of them opened up a little bit and there is no resistance when I lightly tug on it's door. I asked my local fish store guy if this means he is dead and the guy told me to check if it smelled. It didn't. So I was told to keep an eye on it. As of this morning there was no change, but when I got home tonight, they were both definately dead.
All the other inhabitants are looking fine.
My ph and chemical levels are all fine and stable (with the exception of my nitrate levels which were a little higher than usual).
Since then I've done a 20% water change just to be on the safe side.
Does anyone have any idea what could be wrong with my poor loach and what I can do to help?
I do my tests with the Mardel 5 in 1 test strips, so I can't give full details, but here is what I can answer as far as water quality:
The Nitrites are at 0
The Hardness is around 120
The Nitrates are about 40
The Alkalinity is somewhere between 120 - 180
and the ph is pretty close to 7.0
The temp fluctuates a little bit depending on the outside temp and season between mid 70s to low 80s. The last week or so its been between 78 and 81.
It is a 30 gallon tank and my last water change was just after I noticed this happening this morning - about 20%.
I haven't added anything to the tank in the way of additives or medication (except the water conditioner).
I generally feed my fish twice a week but I feed my frogs every other day and the fish get some of the leftovers. I feed them a variety of food, such as tetramin, Omega one, a HBH sinking pellet food (for cichlids which I was told was also good for frogs and other bottom feeders). HBH Frog bites and Wardley algea discs. The frogs get frozen brine shrimp.
I've also put in a green bean for the snails (I heard they like that) but it got gobbled up by the pleacos and algea eater (the snails never came out for it).
I've had the tank for over 10 years but restarted it about 3 years ago.
He's really not looking good right now and he is my favorite fish. I'm really worried that he might not make the night. (He's gotten alot worse since this morning when I first noticed the behavior)
As I said earlier, his body looks great... but his behavior is very disturbing.
Please help!
**Please Help** Sick Kuli Loach :(
Moderator: LoachForumModerators
Hi,
Sorry for the problem you are having --- I have a soft spot for kuhlis too.
OK, based on the information you provided, one guess is an infection brought in by the snails. (Snails can carry diseases, and often do. Consider quarantining them next time.)
If so, the nature of the disease is most likely bacterial. The timing (7 days only) excludes nematodes. A protozoan disease usually would have signs, but this is also a possibility. Ich, for example, can be brought in with store's water, no necessarily on the snails.
To try to deal with a bacterial disease: a couple of antibiotics. A weak mix available in most stores is Maracyn+Maracyn2. A considerably stronger mix is Furan2+Kanamycin.
To try to deal with a protozoan infection: check carefully for ich signs. Kuhli's fins are too small and may not show anything, check other fish. Did you see ich in the store you brought the snails from? Rapid breathing may indicate ich in gills. If you see anything, treat for ich with a med like Ich Guard, or RidIch.
To try to alleviate rapid breathing (shortage of O2?) -- increase the aeration. This will help somewhat regardless of the cause of the disease.
Good luck!
Sorry for the problem you are having --- I have a soft spot for kuhlis too.
OK, based on the information you provided, one guess is an infection brought in by the snails. (Snails can carry diseases, and often do. Consider quarantining them next time.)
If so, the nature of the disease is most likely bacterial. The timing (7 days only) excludes nematodes. A protozoan disease usually would have signs, but this is also a possibility. Ich, for example, can be brought in with store's water, no necessarily on the snails.
To try to deal with a bacterial disease: a couple of antibiotics. A weak mix available in most stores is Maracyn+Maracyn2. A considerably stronger mix is Furan2+Kanamycin.
To try to deal with a protozoan infection: check carefully for ich signs. Kuhli's fins are too small and may not show anything, check other fish. Did you see ich in the store you brought the snails from? Rapid breathing may indicate ich in gills. If you see anything, treat for ich with a med like Ich Guard, or RidIch.
To try to alleviate rapid breathing (shortage of O2?) -- increase the aeration. This will help somewhat regardless of the cause of the disease.
Good luck!
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mistergreen
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I would do another water change. Try really hard to keep the Nitrates under 20 ppm, and if you can get it closer to 10 ppm that will be even better.
I have noticed all sorts of problems with my fish when the Nitrates approach 40 ppm, and if this is the reading after the water change, your Nitrates were even higher. Whatever is going on with the Kuhlie, the Nitrates are not helping. If you suspect the snails might still be alive, put them in a quarantine tank, if they die, they can REALLY stink up a tank, and you do not want that in your main tank.
I have noticed all sorts of problems with my fish when the Nitrates approach 40 ppm, and if this is the reading after the water change, your Nitrates were even higher. Whatever is going on with the Kuhlie, the Nitrates are not helping. If you suspect the snails might still be alive, put them in a quarantine tank, if they die, they can REALLY stink up a tank, and you do not want that in your main tank.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
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PurpleFool
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:30 am
Thanks for the very helpful answers. I will go to the store today to buy to medicine.
Should I treat the whole tank or just the loach? All my other fish seem fine.
I've looked the little guy over very closely and I don't see any signs of ick, nor do any of the other fish show any signs of anything... they all look fine.
Also, the store I got the snails from is very good... a specialty aquarium store (not one of those generic pet store chains) and I've never had troubles with fish from there before.
I have a 1 gallon which I put in 50% tank water and 50% fresh water and moved the loach in there with an airstone to quarantine him (I know it's little, but it's all I have). I think you were right about the O2... he keeps mauvering himself so that he is in the stream of the bubbles.
Should I treat the whole tank or just the loach? All my other fish seem fine.
I've looked the little guy over very closely and I don't see any signs of ick, nor do any of the other fish show any signs of anything... they all look fine.
Also, the store I got the snails from is very good... a specialty aquarium store (not one of those generic pet store chains) and I've never had troubles with fish from there before.
I have a 1 gallon which I put in 50% tank water and 50% fresh water and moved the loach in there with an airstone to quarantine him (I know it's little, but it's all I have). I think you were right about the O2... he keeps mauvering himself so that he is in the stream of the bubbles.
I'd treat the entire tank, and not move the kuhli
Rationale: moving sick fish can easily kill it AND you may have an infection going in the tank, kuhli got it first because it probably ate the dead snail.
There is no such thing as 100% reliable fs.
A good W/C before treatment indeed would help, nitrates should be lowered, even if kuhlis don't seem to be too sensitive to them *when healthy*.
When getting antibiotics, avoid melafix if the store tries to sell it to you.
Good luck.
Rationale: moving sick fish can easily kill it AND you may have an infection going in the tank, kuhli got it first because it probably ate the dead snail.
There is no such thing as 100% reliable fs.
A good W/C before treatment indeed would help, nitrates should be lowered, even if kuhlis don't seem to be too sensitive to them *when healthy*.
When getting antibiotics, avoid melafix if the store tries to sell it to you.
Good luck.
Personally? I wouldn't jump on the medication route right away. That's not to say you may not need to but I'd observe him for a day or two after you do the water change, do another tomorrow, get the tank nice and clean and see if he improves. Vac carefully in the area where you found the dead snails. Increasing oxygenation by lowering the water level so that the return flow splashes may help with his breathing as well.
If his off behavior improves right away you'll know that he was just more sensitive to the deteriorating water quality than your other fish. If it doesn't, you will know that they are ok and you should treat him in a qtank. Exposing a bunch of healthy fish to a course of antibiotics is not necessary, and may not be a good thing long term for them. You may end up with more problems than you started with.
You have a 30g tank, right? What are the other inhabitants? If your mystery snails died and were in the tank all day that could be the problem. If you improve the water quality immediately you may find that's all you need to do. Medicating the whole tank when you're not sure what you're treating is not such a great idea imo. Especially if all the other occupants seem fine...
btw welcome.
If his off behavior improves right away you'll know that he was just more sensitive to the deteriorating water quality than your other fish. If it doesn't, you will know that they are ok and you should treat him in a qtank. Exposing a bunch of healthy fish to a course of antibiotics is not necessary, and may not be a good thing long term for them. You may end up with more problems than you started with.
You have a 30g tank, right? What are the other inhabitants? If your mystery snails died and were in the tank all day that could be the problem. If you improve the water quality immediately you may find that's all you need to do. Medicating the whole tank when you're not sure what you're treating is not such a great idea imo. Especially if all the other occupants seem fine...
btw welcome.
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PurpleFool
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Hi,
I didn't see the post about not medicating until after I already treated the tank.
Hopefully it's the right thing to do...
The store didnt' have Maracyn or Maracyn2. And most of the stuff they had I was told could cause problems with the frogs, shrimp and/or plants. They recommended something called Fungus Eliminator (which I guess is also anti-bacteria. It's active ingr. are sodium choride, nitrofurazone, furazolidone and potassium dichromate.
I did another water change (about 25%) before putting in the meds too. I will try the idea of lowering the water level to increase oxygenation too.
PS - the meds recommended removing the carbon from the filter, which I did.
The poor little guy is just looking worse and worse. He really isn't moving much at all anymore and is still breathing really rapidly - like he's gasping for air
Everyone else is still look normal.
I didn't see the post about not medicating until after I already treated the tank.
Hopefully it's the right thing to do...
The store didnt' have Maracyn or Maracyn2. And most of the stuff they had I was told could cause problems with the frogs, shrimp and/or plants. They recommended something called Fungus Eliminator (which I guess is also anti-bacteria. It's active ingr. are sodium choride, nitrofurazone, furazolidone and potassium dichromate.
I did another water change (about 25%) before putting in the meds too. I will try the idea of lowering the water level to increase oxygenation too.
PS - the meds recommended removing the carbon from the filter, which I did.
The poor little guy is just looking worse and worse. He really isn't moving much at all anymore and is still breathing really rapidly - like he's gasping for air
Everyone else is still look normal.
Not the right med, but *may* work.
Fungus Eliminator is geared toward external fungus-like infections, which is not what you have. However, it contains nitrofurazone and furazolidone -- these are also Furan2 components. Don't know if it has enough of them to handle an internal infection which you likely have.
sodium choride is of course the regular salt, which may not be good for plants....
good luck
PS. If you do decide on medicating it is usually better to phone every store around you and find the meds that are more likely to work. Maracyn's are offered by most fs' and so is Furan2... kanamycin is harder to find.
Fungus Eliminator is geared toward external fungus-like infections, which is not what you have. However, it contains nitrofurazone and furazolidone -- these are also Furan2 components. Don't know if it has enough of them to handle an internal infection which you likely have.
sodium choride is of course the regular salt, which may not be good for plants....
good luck
PS. If you do decide on medicating it is usually better to phone every store around you and find the meds that are more likely to work. Maracyn's are offered by most fs' and so is Furan2... kanamycin is harder to find.
Mike?
He has the following in a 30 gallon tank:
7 neon tetras
3 flame tetras
a molly
two swords
two ADFs
a pleco
a chinese algea eater
the khuli loach
a gold dojo (weather) loach
2 mystery snails (which died and may have been decomposing in the tank all day)
and a little shrimp
He had a snail die-off, which were newly added to the tank. Yes, they could have brought something into the tank with them. But he also described his source as 'very good', and has had no problems with fish from there before. Could it be that the snails were not acclimated to his water and simply died off because of the sudden shock of changing environments? Did he test the differences between waters first?
His water showed high nitrates even after a water change (but not massively so).
Internal bacterial infections are difficult to diagnose. All the other fish are fine. How do you diagnose a fish as having an unspecified bacterial infection based on his description?
I don't really want to get in to an argument here. But felt I should point out that perhaps more information should have been solicited from PH before jumping to recommending medicinal treatment for such a vague set of symptoms.
Btw, PF, khuli's and weather loaches prefer much different environments. Your current tank temp is quite high for misgurnis species and may lead to some stress on your gold dojo over time.
based on PF's description:to handle an internal infection which you likely have.
Just exactly what infection do you think his khuli has and what symptoms he has listed led you to make this diagnosis? I'm sorry mike, but to jump on the medication bandwagon based on a guess is easy for us to do, but we have no way of knowing what infection the khuli has, if any.His body still looks great. Muscular and clean with no spots, abrasions or anything.
The problem is that he's left his hiding spot, is breathing very rapidly, rests lying on one side and does these circular swimming spasms.
He has the following in a 30 gallon tank:
7 neon tetras
3 flame tetras
a molly
two swords
two ADFs
a pleco
a chinese algea eater
the khuli loach
a gold dojo (weather) loach
2 mystery snails (which died and may have been decomposing in the tank all day)
and a little shrimp
He had a snail die-off, which were newly added to the tank. Yes, they could have brought something into the tank with them. But he also described his source as 'very good', and has had no problems with fish from there before. Could it be that the snails were not acclimated to his water and simply died off because of the sudden shock of changing environments? Did he test the differences between waters first?
His water showed high nitrates even after a water change (but not massively so).
Internal bacterial infections are difficult to diagnose. All the other fish are fine. How do you diagnose a fish as having an unspecified bacterial infection based on his description?
I don't really want to get in to an argument here. But felt I should point out that perhaps more information should have been solicited from PH before jumping to recommending medicinal treatment for such a vague set of symptoms.
Btw, PF, khuli's and weather loaches prefer much different environments. Your current tank temp is quite high for misgurnis species and may lead to some stress on your gold dojo over time.
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And where in my post do you see a definitive diagnosis? I made none.shari2 wrote:Mike?based on PF's description:to handle an internal infection which you likely have.Just exactly what infection do you think his khuli has and what symptoms he has listed led you to make this diagnosis?His body still looks great. Muscular and clean with no spots, abrasions or anything.
The problem is that he's left his hiding spot, is breathing very rapidly, rests lying on one side and does these circular swimming spasms.
What I did was merely list the possible causes and the likelihood of them. I further suggested the treatment that may work in each case. I'm inclined to think that it is bacterial, based on the reasons stated above.
If you are concerned about "bacterial", this is explained above. If you are concerned about "internal", this is based on the lack of external symptoms
The information provided is quite obviously insufficient to be certain.
This leaves two choices:
PurpleFool can either treat or not. Based on PurpleFool's posts, the fish is not getting better, so it is either try likely drugs or let it expire. I tend to give it a try in such situations, you apparently don't. Based on my experience with kuhlis (you keep them, right?) once the disease signs show up, time is very limited, and chances are not good.
Perhaps you have a suggestion then?I'm sorry mike, but to jump on the medication bandwagon based on a guess is easy for us to do, but we have no way of knowing what infection the khuli has, if any.
Would you like to venture a diagnosis?
Based on my experience this may not be possible until a necropsy is done, and perhaps even then.
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