Black spots/freckles on clowns suddenly developed... *PICS*

[Icewall42]

I just thought I'd ask, though I'm not very worried about this because I think I've seen a topic here about it before. All five of my clowns (2 very big, one smallish, and the other are babies) have suddenly developed black pigment spots, or freckles, all over their bodies. Most of these spots are on their fins. I've seen a lot of diseases, and this doesn't seem like one. I remember reading that such a pigment issue might be like loach acne?

But I just wanted to make sure that this isn't anything I should worry about. The water parameters from a couple days ago:

pH: 6.4
Nitrates: 0
Nitrites: 0
80-82F
Ammonia: 0

All the fish are acting normally, and are fat and colorful.

[chefkeith]

There are a few reasons for black spots or freckles.

IME, A rapid change in water chemistry seemed to be the main culprite. My water chemistry problem came from dosing ferts and having objects (slate/rocks/gravel) that were not completely inert. Whenever I did a large water change the TDS (total dissolved solids) would drop and the osmotic stress from this gave the clowns black spots. To fix my problem, I removed all the rocks that were leaching, stopped dosing ferts, did smaller more frequent water changes, slowed down the input of freshwater during water changes, and added more pumps to get better water circulation.

Most recently, I moved the clowns from one tank to another and that stress caused black spots also. There was some osmotic stress from the move, but also there was lots of stress from netting them, which may also have contributed to the black freckle outbreak.

A TDS meter could easily pinpoint the problem if it is TDS related. These meters only cost $15 on Ebay. If there is big difference between your source water used during water changes and the aquarium water, then TDS drops is the probable cause for the spots.

[Icewall42]

Hmm... I may have to invest in such a meter. It's possible that something in the city water might have changed, too, since I noticed at the loacl fish store that their clowns, althought fat and healthy, had the freckles too. I wonder about stress, since my biggest clown recently got himself stuck in a decoration and that stressed him out big time, but he's not the only one showing the freckles.

Sounds like it's nothing to be overly alarmed about, though.

[chefkeith]

The freckles can be alarming if it's TDS related.

Escalating TDS can lead to Osmotic Shock, which can eventually lead to organ failure. Dropsy and pop-eye are common symptoms of severe osmotic shock. It usually takes a few days after a water change for these symptoms to show up. Countless times I read about fish loses a few days after a large water change. It's almost systematic and I suspect LoachOrgy's Fish encountered osmotic shock after so many water changes.

The bottom line is, if you don't know the TDS of the tank water and source water you are really putting the fishes life at odds every water change.

I forgot to mention that evaporation will also play a huge role in escalating TDS.

[Icewall42]

I suppose I was assuming the change, if there has been any, hasn't been severe. I haven't changed the water since maybe a week ago. Those chemical results were taken a few days after the last water change. The only thing I can think of is the pinch of salt I added to the tank (I've been doing this with these fish for years) to help prevent infection on one of the loaches that got bruised. But the amount I added was so below the recommended dose for a 72 gallon that I can't see that making sucha difference, especially since I used to regularly add much more salt in the tank for the loaches.

So, I'm not seeing any unusual fish behavior, and I don't really see a direct connection to the freckles yet.

[Tinman]

Salt is it possibly for you .A trend I noticed is shell or salt water type decoration in some tanks complaining of this,so it looks to be hardness related, so No Salt.....ChefKeith has had this topic of black spots among many others and I found it a very intresting trail to follow on this site with lots of info posted about this subject. The measurement of TDS to me I find a very viable trail. I am very careful to remove anything that can create hardness from my personel system although My watershed for city water is The Kansas River and bed which is on an ancient on sea bed floor so the water is tough here but not bad,it is filtered over a fossil shell and sand base much like a chiclid tank is. I added a UV to kill the possible whatevers instead of salt which I never use. I have much success without it.If I have flashes of this black spot I then slow my water change down as it is a continious change out system.Among other things I use the fishes complection as a water quality indicator based on info on this subject I have found on this site to some early success. The black spot seems the other end of the spectrum for my system from cloudy or 02 starved milky color sleepy fish which would indicate I need faster or more frequent water changes. I shoot for shiny,perky fish which indicate high 02 levels but not so much I change my systems ph or go harder and create blackspots

[Icewall42]

Tough call! Many of my fish are shiny and healthy, and if they aren't shiny, they are vibrant in color (the two big clowns are always less vibrant because of their size, but they get nice green shiny on their gill flaps). Hard water is a possibility, but I will say that my fish were raised in very hard water. I don't recall the precise measurment, but let's just say that the color of the pad on the dipstick matched the hardest water it measured. My fish have been in that situation for many years, so I've since stopped worrying about it unless it goes alarmingly out of whack.

I will still see if I can get something to measure that part of the water, just in case.

[Tinman]

We must all play the hand we are dealt.

[Icewall42]

Indeed! Though that hand seems to have been dealt to me after I put water in the tank, never when it comes out fot he faucet

[Icewall42]

Update:

All 5 of my clowns, young and old, still have the freckles. They are actually getting worse. I found the topic about these freckles, but I'm left shrugging my shoulders. I ALWAYS do large water water changes once every two weeks, and I've done this for years. However, these freckles suddenly developed long after the last water change and are NOT a direct effect of the last water change.

So if it's not a sudden change in TDS, then what is it?? And what should I do?

[chefkeith]

What is the TDS of the tank water and the source tap water? How much Evaporation do you have per week or every 2 weeks when you do a water change? What kind of substrate do you have? Do you have any rocks in the tank? What kind of rocks are they? Are there Plants in the tank? What kind of plants? Is there Algae in the tank? How much do you feed the fish everyday? All these things will contribute to the TDS.

Did you ever think that your source tap water could change also? Water departments usually have a multitude of wells that may have a wide range of TDS, Hardness, and Alkalinity.
For instance, The Queen's Lane WTP in Philly has a water Hardness range from 105 to 208 ppm. The Alkality ranges from 48 to 84 ppm. That would be a big difference in TDS from that source.

http://www.phila.gov/water/pdfs/WQR_2006.pdf

[chefkeith]

I just read that you have been adding salt. IMO, that could create all kinds of problems. Salt should only be added if you're treating the fish for some type of ailment or parasite. If the salt has been in there long term, I'd think it would eventually affect the loaches osmolity functions.

I have actually used salt to get rid of the black spots on my clowns. The salt treatment lasted a few weeks. It cleaned the spots away from underneath the slime coat.


Exactly how much salt do you add each water change? I have a program that can estimate the accumilation of pollutants. How much water do you change and how often?

If you use internet explorer you can try the program out yourself.
http://www.geocities.com/chefkeithallen ... izard.html

An example for the inputs :
1- 55 gallons of actual water volume
2- .25 gallons for daily evaporation rate
3- 2 ppm of pollution per day (nitrates)
4- 330 ppm for pollution level of source ( 300 ppm from tap, plus 30 ppm from salt added)
5- 330 ppm for pollution level in tank
6- every other week for water change frequency
7- 50% for water change %

The TDS plateau before the water change would be 441 ppm and 386 ppm after the water change. That's a 55 ppm difference. That's alot of osmotic stress put on the fish.

[chefkeith]

Update:

So if it's not a sudden change in TDS, then what is it?? And what should I do?

Good questions. You could do nothing. The spots might just be a natural pigmentation.

[stabile007]

Icewall's still asleep but let me see if I can help a bit-We change about 30% of the water every other week. The substrate is sand. THe source of water is from the tap which is from the philadelphia water supply systewm so who knows where its coming from. We have a few river rocks in the tank but they have been in the tank with the fish for the past 6-7 years and no new rocks were added. We have live plants but I am not sure the types Icey is better at figuring that out then I am. We feed the fish a pinch of food (about a quarter size pinch) twice a day roughly once in the morning and once in the evening. We do have Algea in the tank so we recently added some algea controller into the tank so maybe the new chemical is doing it.

Also we don't regularly add salt to the tank only in times of extreme emergencies when we think if can help. So on very rare occasions. I think see was asking if that could possible help.

Also last night we orders a TDS meter from eBay as per your inital recommendation. So hopefully that will give us some insite.

[Icewall42]

The only thing I can think of is that the TDS content of the tap water changed. I don't have much experience with city water. As I've mentioned, I originally came from Alaska, where all the city water came from one source that I have personally visited. During this time Alaska, a few years ago, I added a couple of river rocks to the tank from the Mendenhall River. They are just granite/quartz mixes to my knowledge, with maybe some micha and traces of something else. They have never caused a problem in my aquarium, plus, Alaska is a sterile place (I boiled the rocks anyway).

During those years in Alaska, I regularly put the recommended dose of salt into the tank as the package told me. This was before I knew of any sensitivity to salt. I've had problems with adding new fish to that tank (they would disappear without a trace) but the older fish managed just fine. I always did a 50-75% water change once every two or three weeks on that tank, and in all the eyars of running my tank this way (it was a 100g) I have NEVER seen a freckle outbreak. My oldest clown is 11 years old, and this is his first freckle outbreak.

Now, the 72g is just as Stabile describes. The river rocks are stil in it, and I've since switched to sand substrate. I do the 50% water change once every two weeks. I don't add salt anymore except to prevent my biggest clown from getting an infection (he bruised himself after getting stuck in a jar ornament). When I added that salt, I added an amount far under the recommended dose. It was literaly just a pinch of salt, and yes, it's aquarium salt.

I can see the tap changing and cause osmotic stress at water changes, but like I said, these freckles showed up maybe 4-7 days after the last water change. Would they be that slow to react?

Also, the live plants I have are an asortment of Amazon swords, something labeled as a Bella palm (I don't know the scientific name) and something called a pineapple plant that looks like a stiff, short Amazon. I also have a wisp of a green wendtii plant that used to be larger, but has since been eaten. There's also a wisp of a Java fern.

Edit: I change a lot fo water, but the replacement of that water is very slow because I use a long hose connected to the faucet. It takes maybe 10-15 minutes for the tank to fill up again this way. And yes, I ordered the TDS meter yesterday, so I will have a reading for you ina couple days!