For all our photographers out there

[shari2]

NCIAC is developing a database of all the common (and some not so common) fish sold in large retail stores ie petsmart, petco and others later. It is a massive undertaking.

We could use your help. If you have nice, clear, large sized images of your loaches that you would not mind sharing for the effort we would dearly love to have as many species of loach as you can provide. Pictures including a ruler or some other way to show the relative size of the fish would be helpful. Many of these retailers understate the sizes of adult fish. (not to mention the other misinformation out there.

They will all be digitally watermarked to prevent unauthorized use. We will pay for the web tracking function to make tracking theft of images easy. At least if they are utilized on-line. The digital watermark will show if they try to lift them and use them in print. Unauthorized users will easily be busted.

Please consider contributing to the effort to promote accuracy in information among the major retailers, and ultimately better access to information which promotes responsible fishkeeping.

You can send them as attachments to:
shari@noclownsinacube.net, post them here and I'll pass them on to sully, or post them over at the NCIAC forum here:
http://www.noclownsinacube.net/forum/in ... topic=81.0

Thanks to everyone who cares to contribute! (especially Emma, who's got the ball rolling!)

[mistergreen]

why are you guys doing this? just curious...
Those chains should provide info on their fish on their website as good customer service.

[shari2]

and that's why we're doing it. Because they often don't. And we, as fishkeepers, hear all the bad stuff about these chain stores and end up having to help out people who hit the forums all over with tales of woe regarding fish/advice they've received at a big box store that was utterly bad. We don't mind doing it. But wouldn't it be better all the way around if new people got the right information from the places they purchase their first setups?

Sully finally decided to try to do something about it to bring positive change for both fishkeepers and these big retail operations that are in it for the money (which is a legitimate pursuit). They have bad reps all over the internet. Who hasn't heard someone complain bout what they see at Walmart or petsmart or some of the others? How many times have you heard people say they avoid these stores because of the sad state of the fish or the bad experience they've had in the past?

If we can help them to repair that bad rep by
1. making them aware that it exists
2. showing them that fishkeepers do know whereof we speak
3. improving the quality of service and information provided

we make a difference. They have an obligation to provide accurate information. We are pointing that out to them (nicely, and with evidence that they are not) and with community support NCIAC has clout. We are their customer base. Without us they go out of business. NCIAC is all over the place, not just LOL. And we are making a difference because we have legitimate information by experienced hobbyists, scientists and professionals in the trade to back us up.

Nobody gets corporate change effected overnight. But we've made inroads with Petsmart. They have a philosophy:
" Caring for pets is much more than our job, it’s a moral obligation and responsibility."
Given that they state such a thing, we approached them first. and they were receptive and have made changes in the information in their POP (point of purchase) signage. We are still following up with them, which is why when the loach care sheet was posted I feel we should respectfully educate them. The database is to provide accurate examples of real live fish that defy the sometimes mis-information given in stores.

[tariesindanrie]

why are you guys doing this? just curious...
Those chains should provide info on their fish on their website as good customer service.

Good customer service is hard enough to find. Good advice in a retail establishment in regards to ANY product they sell, is nearly impossible to get- and when you consider the fact that the kid netting out fish is likely to know next to nothing- besides the fact that whatever literature the store has on hand was either worthless to begin with, or just outdated...well, you end up with a lot of dead fish. The idea is to get the stores involved in providing good info to go along with their sales, promoting good care and providing a better experience for the hobbyist- particularly the new ones.

Did I get that right, Shari? BTW, I love NCIAC- it tackles issues that have been peeves of mine for a while now!

Kate

[Martin Thoene]

why are you guys doing this? just curious...
Those chains should provide info on their fish on their website as good customer service.

Prescisely because they don't and the info that they have previously been giving customers was positively innacurate. The running of the fish departments of Petsmart as a corporate entity was at almost direct contradiction to company policy on other pets and seemingly due to a lack of knowledge from company "advisors".
It's getting better gradually, but there's still a long way to go. Some dedicated and concerned hobbyists have spent a lot of effort getting this far and by sensible discussion and more than a little political astuteness they are getting some results.
The whole concept as far as I can see it in approaching Petsmart on this issue is that if they change their ways then as a large chain within the pet business others will be forced to change their modus-operandi to stay competetive. Informed consumers may choose to shop where they get good advice......but you have to teach them what is good or bad advice.

This above is my personal take on the whole issue, not NoClownsInACube official stance......though I guess along similar lines. I believe that educating a corporate giant is required in a way that shows it that sales will not suffer and in fact may even increase because of greater customer confidence. Personally, I feel that these changes are needed but Petsmart also needs to seriously look at what species it sells on a regular basis and the prices they charge. In my opinion they sell proportionately far too many unsuitable species and generally their prices are far higher than other major chains, or indeed, smaller shops.

PHOTOGRAPHS

Answering Shari's request for photographs there are certainly numerous existing photos of species available, but not showing them in relationship to a ruler. Showing fish in meaningful relationship to a measure is the problem unless one resorts to a dedicated photographic tank for the purpose.

Martin.

[mistergreen]

interesting endeavor.

Wouldn't it be easier to link info from the web?
There are plenty of really good sites with detailed info (like this site ). Why recreate the wheel?

You can even take their images & info as long as you cite the source.

You might need to ask for their permission but that wouldn't be a problem.

These chains don't have that many fish. you can create your own database of fish although a weird new fish will pop up once in while for $40 a pop.

[helen nightingale]

Shari i wish my skills were good enough to help you!

are you able to include somehow info on how fast the fish grow? i went to one shop with a great reputation in PFK, to find they were very proud of their red tailed pacu that costomers were commenting on how fast it was growing. that was down to their good feeding of course, not that the fish is destined to be a monster. and no label on the tank at all.