very sick weather loach

[KLKelly]

Hi guys. THis is a lengthy post but I hope you read it and help if you can.

I was watching my 30G tank today when I saw one of my two weather loaches react very badly. Like a twisting spazzy swim. After months of watching them I'd never seen one act this way. On closer examination his/her eyes looked a little popped out and his breathing was rapid.

Since this afternoon when I noticed the spazzy frantic swimming he/she deteriorated very rapidly. Paled in colour, eyes popped out a little more and lethargic. Breathing slowed down and he wouldn't eat. One of them had a bad case popeye shortly after I bought them. It cleared up with Maracyn Plus.

I've put him in a 2gallon bucket with a javamoss covered coconut shell and a bubbler and added a dose of Maracyn Plus. (I am getting a 10 gallon tank ready for him for tomorrow morning).

I tested my numbers:
Two 4" weather loaches and three 1" pearlscale goldfish
30 gallon tank (temporary home - I have a 90G and empty 54G)
Well water - softened - gh only buffer added.
PH is higher than normal at 8.3/8.4. My 90G ph is around 8.1/8.2.
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 7.5
Kh 14 (same as my well water).
Temperature is higher than I like at 76-78.
I have them in my basement tv room and there is no heater.
Have had them over four months.
Water changes: 50% once a week. Last one was two days ago.
Recently added: A new bridge ornament and 2 sections of plasticpipe from home depot. Both disinfected with boiling water before adding them a few days ago.
Tank itself is new - they were moved from the 20 gallon two weeks ago. Used cycled filter media in the filters.

I thought I might be the cause of this - I was doing tank maintenance two days ago when I saw what was debris in the java moss and went to pick it out. It was a loach hiding in there . I couldn't imagine that I pinched him hard enough to cause his possible demise???

Do you guys know what could have hit him so quickly?
And any recommendations on treating him?

The other loach is eating and acting normal as are the pearlscales.

Thanks for any help.

Karrie

[shari2]

I doubt if pinching him two days ago would have caused him to spazz today...

anyone with gh/kh savvy think this issue could be connected?

Could he have eaten a small stone and got it stuck? Is his head/mouth normal?

[Diana]

For the GH/KH/pH issue:

What is the KH, GH and pH of the well water with no treatment?

What treatment are you doing to it to 'soften' it?

If the fish have been living in this same water for some time, I do not see that it is a problem suddenly.

Is the well in an agricultural area? Could some pesticide have found its way down into the aquifer? (Add fresh activated carbon to the filter, and change it at least once a week)

KH is a measure of carbonates in the water. It is one of the most common buffers that stabilizes the pH in an aquarium. In general, and usually but not always, high KH = high pH; moderate KH = neutral or acidic pH. Low KH = pH that can alter suddenly.

GH is a measure of Calcium and Magnesium in the water. When a fish is listed as preferring soft or hard water, GH is what is meant. Ca and Mg are nessesary nutrients for plants, fish, snails and nitrifying bacteria. Extremely low GH (less than 3 degrees) can be associated with deficiencies.

pH is a measure of Hydrogen and Hydroxide in the water. More H+ means acidic water. More OH- means more alkaline water. Equal amounts means neutral water. Fish do not much care what the actual pH is, but the associated chemical reactions that may change with the pH can kill them. For example, Ammonia takes two forms in an aquarium. At low pH it is relatively non-toxic. At high pH it is toxic in very small amounts.

KH buffers the water by holding onto and releasing the Hydrogen ions at a rate that will keep the pH stable.

The other issue that is lightly touched on when we are talking about KH and GH is Total Dissolved Solids.
TDS is all the simple stuff that is dissolved in the water. Including carbonates, calcium, magnesium and so much more.
Fish cells have a certain amount of stuff in them: mostly it is water, certain minerals, salts (including dissolved sodium chloride).
When a fish is in water that has lower TDS than the cells, water constantly tries to enter the cells. Fresh water fish live with this all the time. They get rid of excess water and retain the minerals and salts they require. Fresh water fish pee a lot. They also get rid of certain unwanted chemicals (such as Ammonia and Carbon Dioxide) via the gills. When the body cannot regulate the incoming water well enough you get issues such as Dropsy and Popeye. One of the ways you can help a fish like this is to raise the TDS of the water. This is often done with Sodium Chloride (Table Salt, Aquarium Salt, Kosher Salt... just make sure it does not have anti-caking additives) or with Epsom salt. This is Magnesium and will show up as GH when you test the water hardness. When the water is already as hard as this water seems to be, adding more stuff is not going to help.

How all of this info relates to the current issue, a sick Dojo, I am not sure.
If the levels have changed recently, the fish may be reacting to that; some issue might have been already going on that has been made worse by the change in TDS. Individual fish react differently to similar changes. What one fish can handle with no problem, another may be weakened by it.

At this point it is good the fish is in quarantine, just in case there is something contaigous. There often is a disease issue when dropsy or popeye shows up: something is causing the internal osmotic regulatory failure.

[KLKelly]

Hey Diana - I meant to reply yesterday. Thanks so much for taking your time to read my post and replying. I added carbon right after reading your post.

I have ammonia in my well water. I've had lengthy discussions about this on another forum. Conflicting advice - some say its not normal, some say they are on city water with ammonia so it could be normal. I am in a subdivision but there is a corn field about a half kilometer away.

Untreated well water after bubbling for 24 hours. Kh 14, GH 10 and ph of 8.1 (that has jumped the last couple weeks to 8.3/8.4 and I don't know why). Ammonia .25. Nitrates 0.

Nothings changed in terms of the water. Its trickled for 24 hours before hand in a two bin trickle tower setup. I also add the gh buffer there so there is no shock to the fish.

The water is softened through my water softener system and uses salt. I could set the degrees of hardness here rather than add the gh buffer. Maybe I should be doing that instead.

The other fish seem to be acting fine.

I added a uv unit to the 30 gallon yesterday and hope that it will kill anything. I'm nervous because of how quickly the loach deteriorated. He's still alive but not eating. I'll tempt him/her with something other than medigold today to see if it helps.

Thanks again.

Karrie

[KLKelly]

I will post on the local aquariums society. I'll get the tds of the tank and tap water tested.

[shari2]

Glad to hear he's still hanging in there.
Keep us posted.

[sophie]

weathers are notorious for being very sensitive/sick when first acquired, but very hardy when settled in. four months is a while to have had him, though.

sounds neurological to me; whether bacterial/viral, down to poisoning, parasites or due to injury I couldn't begin to guess though I seriously doubt whether you could have damaged him yourself unless you picked him out of that moss with pliers...

the only possible advice that I have is to keep him as you have him and keep the water really clean.

I'm sure I remember something like this from the forums from before but I can't find it

best of luck with this - and I'm sorry I can't be of any use.