clown loaches with (bubble)

[clownloachfan]

i was just reading something where it said that you should treat loaches with maracyn 2 that have the skinny disease for 10 days. Would this work for the bubble. I mean the bubble seems to be associated with wasting.

[mikev]

Extremely unlikely, IMO.

Maracyn2 is minocycline, which is a relatively good antibiotic and is of some use in combination treatments (albeit it is no longer one of the drugs I keep or use). As an antibiotic it will work only on bacteria; we don't have any evidence that the bubble is bacterial in nature and some evidence to the contrary.
Even if we thought that bubble is caused by (an unknown) bacteria, M2 is good, but there are stronger antibiotics out there.

Naturally, M2 has no effect on parasites, that IMO are the most common cause of loach wasting.

--

I'll reply to the previous post a bit later.

[clownloachfan]

how about maracyn 1? or a combo of both?

[mikev]

Same logic.

One does not fight the symptoms (wasting), one fights the disease. We have no evidence that bubble is bacterial. The fact that it does not seem to infect other fish, even after very long time, points to a different cause.

Further, IMO Maracyn 1 is probably about the least useful antibiotic that exists, for treatment of fish diseases.

I doubt that Levamisole will do anything good either, but IMO it is surely in the category of drugs worth trying.

But I think more research is needed first, before experiments.

[mikev]

thanks for the pics rocco, i can especially see the bubble in pics 3 and 5. Still, it is hard to see. I like the theory about the loaches being fed pig hearts. It makes sense. I remember studying Trichinella in my biology class, i will have to refresh my memory on it. The only thing i remember about it is that humans get it if we eat raw or undercooked pork.

You can look at the Wiki Article, it has the essentials.

I'm not claiming that this is the cause, of course, but some things do match nicely. For example, to infect another fish you really need it to eat a loach with the bubble, there should be no spreading of the eggs from a worm that sits in the tissue.

Yes, 3 and 5 I can see and they are consistent with my 2005 loach. But I'm still having trouble with double-sided bubbles. One need to check if they are aligned: perhaps the other size is simply a second bubble in about the same position.

Also, where is the fish heart relative to the bubble?

[clownloachfan]

well i was looking up some things today and ran across this pic. You can clearly see the bubbles. [/img]

[clownloachfan]

thats weird, it didnt go to the first page, got an error, see if this works.

[shari2]

Ok, I'll chime in here...

To me it seems that chefkeith's closer to on the right track.

If it was a chronic disease and not transmittable, why would a group of fish that were purchased together have the same problem? IMO, if it's not a genetic defect, then something traumatic happened to the group of fish somewhere along the line. The bubble to me looks like fluid buildup leading to the gill membranes. When a fish experiences sudden osmotic drops, the body is trying to expel minerals, which may cause gill membranes to explode. If some gill membranes do explode, fluids will build-up in other regions.

From the Aquaculture dictionary:

Gas Bubble Disease

Caused when supersaturated gases in the water, escape from the water into the body fluids of the fish. Gasses in supersaturated water will try escape out of the water into any medium where the gas saturation level is lower (e.g. into the air, or in the case of gas bubble disease, into the blood and other fluids of the fish). Most commonly seen in the yolk sacs, gills and eyes (and occasionally the fins) as these are the areas of the body which have the most gas permeable membranes. The gas then causes bubbles to form inside capillaries and under the skin, restricting the blood flow and forming haemorrhages and clots. Fish often show signs of swimming upside down or vertically, sometimes looking as if they are gasping for air at the surface. The condition affects small fish more, as the membranes that the gas has to permeate through are thinner. Large fish can be affected, but only at higher supersaturation levels. Gas supersaturation levels need only to be >103% to put very small fish at risk.

And an abstract on Gas Bubble Disease from PubMed (have to have a subscription to the service to access the full paper):

[Gas bubble disease of fish]
[Article in German]

Bohl M.

Bayerischen Landesamt für Wasserwirtschaft, Institut für Wasserforschung, Versuchsanlage Wielenbach.

Gas bubble disease (GBD), a non-infectious, environmentally/physically induced trauma, is caused by an increase in the dissolved gas pressure above the ambient air pressure (supersaturation). Frequently the cause is an increased partial pressure of nitrogen-especially in spring-/groundwater. All fish species as well as amphibians and aquatic invertebrates are susceptible. Fish species and age groups are different sensitive; swim up fry is very endangered. The disease may occur in a chronic form at approximately 103% and in an acute form at above 110/115% total gas pressure (TGP). Fish, especially fry, with the chronic form die slowly without symptoms. The clinical symptoms of the acute form are disorientation, subcutaneous emphysema, embolism, exophthalmus mostly only on one side, swimming near the water surface with darkened skin, haemorrhages and high mortality. Losses increase with increased TGP. Generally, mortality in the chronic form increases by secondary infections of emphysematous tissue. As technical processes may be the cause for an increased total gas pressure, such as water pumping, heating water or mixing cold with warm water, in this context we could speak from a "technopathy". The following "therapeutic" measurement is recommended: avoid causal factors, transfer damaged fish in expanded water, turn off the cause, compensate the pressure in deeper water, if possible.

Not saying this is it for sure, but the chronic form seems to fit. Small fish are more susceptible, and as chefkeith said, osmoregularity is largely overlooked in farm breeding systems as well as in your typical hobbyist's aquariums.

The gas buildup leads to secondary infections which should (depending on if you can determine the appropriate course of treatment) be treatable with antibiotics. Next time you buy small fish with the 'bubble' try acclimating them very slowly to your water, and treating with a broad spectrum antibiotic while in the qtank. Be sure that when you transfer fish from the qtank (if any make it!) that you are also acclimating them to the parameters of the main tank equally as carefully.

Just my two cents. Can't say for sure, but seems like a possibility.

[clownloachfan]

Sounds like a plan shari. What types of antibiotics should be used to get rid of the gas bubble? I have never heard of that disease before. I wonder why it is only showing up in clown loaches most of the time? I would have replied earlier but somehow i missed this.

[shari2]

First of all, read this article chefkeith just posted:
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/h ... ctin.shtml

I'd try the acclimation procedure first, before hitting anything with antibiotics.

[clownloachfan]

Very interesting article. Thanks. Yes, i will try the slow acclimation first. I would much rather find ones that dont have the bubble at all though.