Butterfly/hillstream loach keeps sliding down the glass

Tonii · Post by **Tonii** » Tue May 09, 2006 11:17 pm

I just bought a second hillstream loach to keep my other one company. It took to the aquarium glass right away and started sucking, but I notice it seems to slowly slide down the glass whether it is facing up or sideways as if it just doesn't quite stick as much as it should. Is this normal for some? It is also a bit different design that my other which has the dark spots. Maybe it's just a different variation with a quirk, or should I take it back and get another one?

Gary Herring · Post by **Gary Herring** » Wed May 10, 2006 2:41 am

Hi Toni,

Firstly, if you have'nt already, please follow the link below and read some of the articles, especially Martin Thoene's which will tell you everything you need to know about hillstream loaches.

http://www.loaches.com/hillstream_intro.html

Then, post again with some more information (the more the better!), ie: How big is your tank? What filtration, currant and airation does it have? Water parameters? Temperature? Other tank inhabitants? etc, etc.

Tonii · Post by **Tonii** » Wed May 10, 2006 10:03 am

Yes, I have read the articles, thank you.

I have 29 gal tank, with 4 - 1 to 1 1/2 inch long fantails and the 2 loaches. I am not using a heater. I have an airstone aerator and aquatech power filter. About 1 month old, using cycle nutrifiers. Last week I used fungal meds as a precaution although my fish with fungus was removed - maroxy, maracyn. After that I did a 30% water change.

Nitrate readings are about 2, nitrite .1, ammonia .5, ph 7.4, so I just did another 20% water change and dropped in ammonia clear.

mikev · Post by **mikev** » Wed May 10, 2006 10:59 am

First, on sliding: *some* sliding seems to be normal for at least some lizard-type hillstreams even under right conditions. You did not say what kind of hillstreams you have, unf.

Now, on your tank: it is either not cycled, or has been uncycled by Maracyn. Probably the first, given that the tank is new. 0.5 Ammonia is deadly for any fish, but in the case of hillstreams even 0.1 NitrItes are dangerous: the way NitrItes kill is by tying up hemoglobin, and hillstreams need oxygen more than other fish.
Just how bad this is seems to depend on the species (I have tried to collect some data on this -- far from complete for now -- and it appears that Gastros and Pseudogastros are the most sensitive, but Beafortias may be able to manage it). Small amount of salt will alleviate the effects of the nitrites poisoning.

20% changes (daily?) will not do it.

Do you have another CYCLED tank? -- to either evacuate or use its water for much larger water changes?

hth

APPEND. Ooops, noticed you said "Butterfly". Still not enough info, I saw lizards sold as "HK Butterfly".

Gary Herring · Post by **Gary Herring** » Wed May 10, 2006 11:08 am

Your really not going to want to hear this, but IMO your tank is not really suitable for Hillstreams loaches.
For a start, like most river fish, hillstreams will not tolerate ANY measurable levels of ammonia, or even worse nitrite. As you will know from reading the article, they need an environment in which the water is oxygen rich. The most damaging effect of nitrite is that it stops the fish from being able to uptake oxygen from the water, so you can see how this is a massive problem and nitrite poisoning is likely to be the cause of the symptoms you describe.
Im really sorry, but it could well be to late for them already, your best bet by far is to take the loaches back to the shop untill your tank is fully matured with no traces of ammonia or nitrite. And even then, IMO hillstream loaches are not suitable inhabitants for a goldfish tank, as they have completly opposite requirements.

Tonii · Post by **Tonii** » Wed May 10, 2006 11:12 am

I think that my original hillstream is a Beafortias, although one of the gastros looks very similar. My new one is shaped like a beaufortias, but its markings are a little different and it is lighter. I will try to get a picture.
So should I do a major water change now?

Tonii · Post by **Tonii** » Wed May 10, 2006 11:15 am

My tank had been having 0 levels of ammonia and nitrite until these meds I guess. The first one has been doing great, the second one seems fine except he has a little less suction. This couldn't have caused the problem in the new one as he had it when I first put him in the tank. Those readings were before the water change.

Gary Herring · Post by **Gary Herring** » Wed May 10, 2006 11:28 am

The comments about the nitrites was'nt a matter of opinion, it was a fact. As anyone else here will tell you, hillstreams will not tolerate nitrites, and even a small level will kill them. You could, as mikev said, try some salt to relieve the nitrites effects (half of a normal tonic dose), but that in itself could cause stress.

mikev · Post by **mikev** » Wed May 10, 2006 11:36 am

All right.

If you previosuly had CONSISTENT zero readings, then probably Maracyn destroyed your tank. IMHO, Maracyn must not be used unless you absolutely must, and it NEVER should be used in a large tank. It is a dangerous med which does more bad than good.

The best course of actions is to evacuate the hillstreams ASAP, either to another tank you have (if you do), or to a friend, or return to the store. Then let the goldfish cycle the tank, maybe it will even survive.

Some things will improve the situation a little, but I don't think enough to save the fish.

Things you can do are:
1. Salt. I agree with Gary that salt is generally bad, but nitrites are MUCH worse.
2. Massive water changes. 50% twice a day, with most water from an established tank helps.
3. Seachem's PRIME, overdosing.

But even doing all three of these give you only slim chances.

Tonii · Post by **Tonii** » Wed May 10, 2006 11:41 am

What is the difference between beautiforias and gastros? They look very similar in the species pics?

mikev · Post by **mikev** » Wed May 10, 2006 11:44 am

Tonii wrote:What is the difference between beautiforias and gastros? They look very similar in the species pics?

B == dark dots on light background+small mouth, G == light dots/stripes on dark background+large mouth.

This is not your problem, really. either kind will not last long in your tank unless you fix it asap. But if you got both, Gastros will probably go first.

Gary Herring · Post by **Gary Herring** » Wed May 10, 2006 11:51 am

In terms of behaivior, basic care and requirements, not alot. They are both species of the family Balitoridae and are from fast flowing waters in S.E. Asia. Beaufortia K. are light greenish in colour with dark spots and generally grow to double the size of Gastro's, which in the most common species, are dark brown with light spots.

Gary Herring · Post by **Gary Herring** » Wed May 10, 2006 11:56 am

mikev wrote:
This is not your problem, really. either kind will not last long in your tank unless you fix it asap.

Agreed. I know its not what you want to hear, but your better of taking good advice.

Tonii · Post by **Tonii** » Wed May 10, 2006 12:23 pm

I did a partial water change and the ammonia and nitrites are at 0. I have used cycle nitrifier to assist in cycling the tank.

I have noticed no unusual behavior in either of them, except the new one has a little less suction. Although I have noticed he seems to be able to stay in one spot sometimes. It's a very very slow slide, maybe that is normal?

I think the original one is a beauforia and the new one may be a gastro. (I had intended it to be the same as the first one)

Tonii · Post by **Tonii** » Wed May 10, 2006 1:24 pm

My avatar is the best pic I could get of my new guy. Not sure which species maybe gastro?

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