Kuhlis can be weird

[Graeme Robson]

And here's a old picture of my breeding pair i had many years ago. The male used to bother the female quite a lot back then.

[mikev]

I'd say that's a P. semicincta. An up-side-down kuhli doesn't sound good. Martin's idea of of trying an almond leaf may net be a bad idea at this point.

I'll get back to P.M. vs P.S. soon.

She is still alive. If I'm lucky I'll have an almond leaf late tonight or tomorrow (I've been asking since the day Martin mentioned this). Any idea on how to disinfect it? (I know for a fact that KUSS has an infectious component to it.--it is a weird story I should probably tell) I hope she makes it, she is actually very attractive.

How can you tell if it's a female - aside from the greenish belly coloring? The ones I've gotten by mail order are usually very small and thin.

What Martin said about fins is certainly correct -- and the same thing happens with other cyprinids. I'm less sure that we can practically use it, given the khuli general variery. But I've noticed that female khulis seem to become egg-laden with very high probability...right now I have a minimum of 6 out of 19 khulis here...possibly 8. This takes time, but it seems that any khuli that one had in more or less decent conditions, has not been moved even between tanks for 4-6 months, does not look sick or juvenile and does not become egg-laden is almost certainly a male. Slightly bizarre twist on this end is that the # of egg-laden khulis grew up from 2 about a month ago to the current proliferation, and the newly recognized females include some which I had for very short time (including one that is very small, 2" and skinny)....is there a seasonal component somewhere?

I am jumping to conclusions based on insufficient data, but this is sometimes the fastest way to get somewhere...

As for getting small and thin khulis: almost all khulis I've seen in Petlands are like this. It is not clear this is bad: it gives us a chance to observe juveniles becoming adults (dot development), and younger khulis may live longer and adjust better to tank conditions. Just feed them well for a few months....

Wendie, I think you are a LOL record holder....Popular subject.

Yeah!...and if we had a few more Pangio enthusiasts which are out there somewhere, it could have become even better... IMHO, one way this should be going is toward specimen pages. Something like planetcatfish does, but better organized and with brief comments. And if this works, do the same for other *common* loaches later (yoyo would be of most interest to me, but they are all interesting).

Talking about specimens: anyone dares to provide an opinion on the Oohfishy's khuli? I think it is a P.M. if we are forced to choose between P.M. and P.S. So is Wendie's loach, and so is the top loach in the 1st Graeme's picture, despite some stripes irregularity (while this thread is going, maybe we can try to tag every posted khuli?)

Graeme, thanks a lot for the breeding picture! I guess both are P.M.'s. Do I see a baby khuli near the male's tail? If you could say a few more words about them, it would be very useful: I have not seen anything that even remotely looks like male chasing a female (been specifically looking for it)...was your male exceptionally virile, or what do you think made this happen? What were the tank characteristics when this took place?

One thing that is becoming more obvious daily: without proper khuli-species tanks we would not observe as much as possible.

Sorry for the long post....lots of interesting stuff going on here.

[Martin Thoene]

Yeah!...and if we had a few more Pangio enthusiasts which are out there somewhere, it could have become even better... IMHO, one way this should be going is toward specimen pages. Something like planetcatfish does, but better organized and with brief comments. And if this works, do the same for other *common* loaches later (yoyo would be of most interest to me, but they are all interesting).

In the works Mike. Preliminary plans call for updating and augmenting the current info supplied within each species description. Thse will start with a standardized format for each species. A written description on requirements and behaviour, then all the current information below that in date order of submission. All these personal anecdotes and experiences are highly valid. Almost no current information will get dumped unless a whole relacement text is written that supercedes it in content and current knowledge.
The LOL species index will be our first port of call in the updating of this whole site. It needs MAJOR revisions. Despite being the greatest collection of loach species info, it is WAY too much out of date.
As an aside, the book we have coming out features (unless it gets edited viciously) full descriptions on 9 species of Kuhlis written by Cybermeez.

Martin.

[Wendie]

The two other kuhlis that I have - which refuse to be photographed - did show signs of being a pair several months ago. They were side by side and kept trying to entwine themselves. I have never seen that action in all the years I have had kuhlis. They didn't seem to be fighting, just slowing wrapping around each other. Now these two are together day and night. If you see one nose poking out from under something the other one is right along side. They do tend to shun the other kuhli. They are also differently marked very slightly. Both are nice and big. I can't see any greenish tinges though - most of the time just noses and a flash of a body. The two on the one side stay together. You can see the Indian Almond Leaf in the background.

I've also noticed that the black kuhlis in the same tank are not as heavy bodied as the kuhlis are. They've had the same food, and perhaps eaten better but yet are not that heavy bodied.

I'm also curious as to what happens to the eggs. Does the females body absorb them if stressed, does she abort the eggs or try to mate? Does she become egg bound? If females can carry eggs that easily then something happens with them.

[mikev]

Great news, Martin!

This is certainly needed, and hopefully the revised pages will contain standard summaries (max size, live expectancy,...)

What I'm suggesting is a bit different: detailed specimen pages for very few common species that have lots of variations. These can be done separately from the main site update project and will, if successful, end up being appendices to the main project.

With "common" striped Pangios the situation is not unlike that with "common" Plecos: nobody knows what the species really are, except that with Plecos we kind of know that they all interbreed....and I'm currently very unhappy about the P.M. vs P.S. division: it is either simply wrong, or very incomplete. Having many samples may allow us to see the picture better.

[cybermeez]

Graeme, thanks a lot for the breeding picture! I guess both are P.M.'s. Do I see a baby khuli near the male's tail? If you could say a few more words about them, it would be very useful: I have not seen anything that even remotely looks like male chasing a female (been specifically looking for it)...was your male exceptionally virile, or what do you think made this happen? What were the tank characteristics when this took place?

I think the little kuhli in the middle in Graeme's photo is probably one of his P. cuneovergata. Is that a correct guess Graeme?

[mikev]

Yes, I've seen two "khuli friends" too...but I think both are male...

I've also noticed that the black kuhlis in the same tank are not as heavy bodied as the kuhlis are. They've had the same food, and perhaps eaten better but yet are not that heavy bodied.

They are a very different species, probably closer to Pangio piperata (see Martin's picture above) than to "common" striped Khulis. In fact, I'm not sure that putting black and striped in the same tank is a good idea. With your 3+3 setup, they are forced to intermix, and this may mess up their behavior. With my 9+7 setup in the big tank, they don't intermix and occupy different areas...but still I don't think they should be together.

I'm also curious as to what happens to the eggs. Does the females body absorb them if stressed, does she abort the eggs or try to mate? Does she become egg bound? If females can carry eggs that easily then something happens with them.

Ah, now you into questions I really wonder about. There was another female I got about a month ago. Came from a bad KUSS case (almost all khulis died in Petland, there were two survivors I got, and the other died here quickly...). Had the green tint at the store and when I put her into the tank...a few days later the tint dissappeared...now it came back.

No idea what happened. She might have been pretty sick when I got her and recovered now, but what really happened with the original eggs she had?

If my new khuli girl (the one with lots of pictures above) makes it, I'd not be very surprised if she becomes egg-laden again by April....

----

Wendie, to keep everything tagged: I assume that the two striped khulis on the left are P.S., and the one on the right might be a juvenile P.M....

[Graeme Robson]

Yes, Robin is correct. The little dude is a P. cuneovergata that was caught up in the act.

Mike, these actions where not often enough for me to stand here and debate full strength, however you have a massive point on how we need to observe the actions of Pangio's

[Wendie]

Once I can get some more kuhlis without the KUSS problem then the black kuhlis will be put back in the all black kuhli tank. I just wanted to get a little more action in that tank. I thought that with the addition of the black kuhlis they others would be encouraged to venture out more. However, if they are completely different; what explains the faint stripes that you can see on the black kuhlis from time to time?

The one on the right is the same one that developed the spots on his upper back as he/her grew.

[mikev]

Once I can get some more kuhlis without the KUSS problem then the black kuhlis will be put back in the all black kuhli tank. I just wanted to get a little more action in that tank. I thought that with the addition of the black kuhlis they others would be encouraged to venture out more.

It is surely better than what I did in one of the tanks...Kuhlis there are under a constant attack of Pakistani terrorists...

However, if they are completely different; what explains the faint stripes that you can see on the black kuhlis from time to time?

I don't think these are related to "normal" stripes, and even if they were, the sp. are still quite different, both in the behavior and in the anatomy.

One possible less-obvious example: I just saw my suspect egg-laden black. The green area is shorter than for the common striped kuhlis and this suggests different internal layout. (Don't take this too seriously, I may still be wrong about this kuhli being egg-laden, it is hard to see green in dark red.)

The one on the right is the same one that developed the spots on his upper back as he/her grew.

So, a juvenile. Too bad we don't have pictures of the process....the best I can do now is to photoshop a simulation.

[gulogulo]

I thought since everyone else is contributing that I may as well throw my two cents in. First off, this thread has peaked my interest in Pangios even more. I have had 2 P. javanicus for about 5 years now, the only survivors of a batch of a dozen. They are very active and always come out for food. I have never observed faint stripes on my as Wendie suggested on hers. I just picked up 4 additional P. javanicus yesterday. My plan is to give all of them after quarantine a tank of their own in hopes of enabling the breeding process.
After observing my 4 new acquisitions I noticed that 3 of the 4 have some amount of mottling so the coloration looks closer to Martin's P. piperata pics than the P. javanicus I have. This may be due to stress but because I'm not familiar with P. piperata I am unsure what characters to look for to determine if I got lucky and picked up some piperata or if they are javanicus. If I got any pics yesterday that show the differences I'll try and share.
Any info on physical differences between piperata and javanicus would be appreciated.
Thanks all for a great thread

[mikev]

I have never observed faint stripes on my as Wendie suggested on hers.

I think I did at the very beginning...I think they were bones showing through, the kuhlis were very thin when I got them. Certainly cannot see anything like this now.

[mikev]

Ok, some more comments on KUSS. This is a bit OFT.

I just had my closest experience with fish importing: saw a bag of 100 kuhlis directly from Thailand (incidentally, I did check the label, and looked at them -- mostly P.S.). Almost all alive, many should be dead by tomorrow -- Ammonia readings in the shipping bag are horrible. LFS never bothered to check them before (!@#!). Of course, when released into a bucket, they started swimming for air. Immensely stupid and unnecessary: putting some ammonia absorber into the bag should have been an improvement on the cheap; of course more water would have been even better but costly. It is pretty clear that Ammonia is not the only problem, but it is a big factor in KUSS -- khulis are not very ammonia-tolerant (No, not something that happened in my tanks, but I have a bad habit of testing water in the bags from lfs and there was one case with ammonia readings and no survivors.) Strangely, Gastros in a similar bag made it fine (but it was less crowded), but some extremely attractive but unknown to me hillstream/brook loaches did not: 2/3 dead. (And I'm really irritated by this -- he said that he ordered them for me, when I specifically asked not to...)

I did not look at the kuhlis too carefully, the entire thing was too depressing. I did notice a couple of really young kuhlis...(1.25") if they make it through the next few days (not likely), I probably will buy them -- i want to see more of the development process.

I did what I could to improve the kuhli chances (quarantine in a tank off main system, extra air to deal with poisoning, meds for other possible causes and test one pet theory, etc) but I doubt this will save many of them. 20% losses are certain, and maybe much worse. We'll see the score in 3-5 days.

One question: does anyone have an idea what are the longterm effects of serious ammonia poisoning on survivors?

Specific concern: can a massive poisoning mess up their sex life later on?


...........

The good news are that my kuhli girl seems to be doing better...still stuck in the tank corner but paying attention to food......

[Wendie]

I have never observed faint stripes on my as Wendie suggested on hers.

I think I did at the very beginning...I think they were bones showing through, the kuhlis were very thin when I got them. Certainly cannot see anything like this now.

It was when I was taking a photo of them. You know how the photo itself shows stuff that you don't see with the naked eye. They were young at the time.

[mikev]

Maybe bones or muscle showing through the skin?

(But never say no: there maybe ten subspecies out there that were never documented....I just saw a really nice looking and apparently undocumented loach)