More help, PLEASE!

[mikev]

And what sort of vet would be able to look at a tropical fish?

Some vets can. Call a few vets around and see if they know of one. There may be one in PA close enough to you.

It's possible that is was a bacteria... but then why didn't my other small loaches, the established striata and the two older skunks, why didn't they die, too?

If you have a pathogenic bacterial (or similar) bloom in your tank, this is probably not over, so it would be really good to figure out what this is and treat the surviving fish asap.

[mikev]

Salt is all I've got... should I add it?

Hold on. small amounts of salt are not going to do much good against any possible pathogen.

Do you have a spare Q-tank?

[Icewall42]

Yes I have a 30 gallon Q-Tank, and now that one of my big modestas is acting strange...

When will this end??? I have a 10 year old clown loach in that tank!

The modesta is yet another different case... he's acting erratic, breathing isn't especially rapid (though not calm, either) I nudged him, and he took off spastically around the tank, and every now and then he starts to flip sideways but he rights himself and seems active... it's like his equilibrium is off.

[mikev]

Yes I have a 30 gallon Q-Tank, and now that one of my big modestas is acting strange...

When will this end??? I have a 10 year old clown loach in that tank!

Unfortunately, from what you describe, large or full wipeout is possible. I had one like this, lost a full qtank (and even threw away the tank, everything included, since I knew what did it.)

The modesta is yet another different case... he's acting erratic, breathing isn't especially rapid (though not calm, either) I nudged him, and he took off spastically around the tank, and every now and then he starts to flip sideways but he rights himself and seems active...

OK, recheck once again that the water params are ok (ammonia, nitrites, etc). Lets exclude this as a cause.

Then, if I were in your place: I'd move the most valuable fish out via a strong disinfectant bath. Meth Blue is very good for this purpose, in high concentrations it kills most bugs, 30 mins bath in Meth Blue, and then move the fish into the other tank. If it does not have the pathogen inside yet, it will make it.

Do not try to save every fish, and certainly do not try to move over the fish that is symptomatic.

Alternative approach: hit the tank with several antibiotics and disinfectant now. You will kill the biocycle, so get prime and lower the pH to <=6.4. Consider your q-tank as a place to evacuate too in case.

I'm not saying these are great ideas, such are impossible unless you know what you are up against, but these often work, and you may be out of fish by the time you know how to fight this better.

good luck

[Icewall42]

I moved the modesta to the q-tank and tried throwing super velvet plus on him (since I've had decent luck with it for various problem) I also put salt int he tank.

I just have to hope these live till tomorrow when I can find some meth blue. Main tank paramteters are now:

80+ Buffering capacity
6.8-7.0 pH
78-82F
Hardness is moderate

There should be zero ammonia as the tank was just changed yesterday. THe only thing left for me to do is to do a whole water change again. I can't test the ammonia now because the test strips got contaminated.

[shari2]

I don't know of any parasite that will cause sudden unexplained death with no observable symptoms, but I'm not an expert.

Icewall, one thing I know of that does cause sudden unexplained death is
Aeromonas hydrophila. Sometimes called Hemorrhagic Septicemia it is difficult to diagnose and often death occurs before treatment can be started.

Here's a paper on it:
http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/AS/AS-461.pdf
Treatment is given in the paper.

There is also a viral strain, but without sophisticated laboratory analysis there's no way to diagnose it because observable symptoms can be similar to many different types of disease. The viral type seems to only affect cold water fish though, so I'd not worry about that in your case.
If as in your case there is no warning prior to death, I'd tend to think septicemia.

If you have this, it is zoonotic (humans can get it) so be sure to wash carefully and wear gloves if you have any open wounds on your hands.

[mikev]

Uggh,...this probably was a mistake. If you moved a symptomatic fish, you simply infected your qtank too.

OK. If the situation still looks bad tomorrow, and you still don't know what is the cause, you want Meth Blue and at least a couple of decent antibiotics, but check compatibility. I'd probably go with Furan and Neomycin. Remember, that these together will fully destroy your biocycle, so bring pH down and invest in Prime too.

Good luck.

[Icewall42]

I know, I over reacted and thought to immediately remove the sick fish...

Question: If medicine has expired, could that cause fish to get sick like this? I just saw the Super Sulfa expired quite a while. Could that at least explain the pulchra's death and the modesta's strange behavior?

I'm going to get the mth blue and the other recommended stuff, and I'm going to check out the septicemia.

[Fear_The_Loach]

Good luck!

[mikev]

I know, I over reacted and thought to immediately remove the sick fish...

Basic logic: if the disease is likely to affect only the sick fish, you remove it.
If the disease is likely to affect all fish, try to save the most valuable one.

Question: If medicine has expired, could that cause fish to get sick like this? I just saw the Super Sulfa expired quite a while. Could that at least explain the pulchra's death and the modesta's strange behavior?

Probably not.

I'm going to get the mth blue and the other recommended stuff, and I'm going to check out the septicemia.

Given that there is no information on the nature of the disease (other than it is likely caused by a small pathogenic organism), do not make assumptions. Instead, try to strike as wide as you can; you cannot cover viruses and some bacterias but you can cover most.

You should be able to find Furan2; if you cannot find Neomycin, consider Tetracycline/Minocycline+Eritromycin.


Good luck.

[Icewall42]

What if there were traces of copper in the water when I put the Super Sulfa in?

[Fear_The_Loach]

Possibly....

[mikev]

What if there were traces of copper in the water when I put the Super Sulfa in?

No idea, but it generally less probable that the first 4 deaths were caused by a disease, and then the 5th death and modesta symptoms were caused by something else....it is more probable that the same cause acted in all cases....Occam's Razor.
You can try googling for "Super Sulfa expired" and see if there is something about it on the web.

[Icewall42]

Nothing immediately comes up.

The symtoms just don't make any sense, they don't seem to match up... I'm so confused. I hope with the emds I get tomorrow, everything will be okay again.

The modesta doesn't seem any worse, just really fidgety with some balance issues.

[mikev]

The symtoms just don't make any sense, they don't seem to match up... I'm so confused.

This is usually the case. I've had several encounters with wipeout-level diseases, in most case the symptoms were none or did not make sense.

Unfortunately, if one goes solely by symptoms, one tends to lose most fish by the time the nature of the disease is ascertained. A microscopic examination may be of great help.

I hope with the emds I get tomorrow, everything will be okay again.

Let's hope so.

Meanwhile, you may want to go through yellow pages for your area to see if there is a fish vet available.

PS. Donno if this is any good, but I found by googling this listing...you may want to check

Fish Doctor
381 Bennet St.
Luzerne, PA
717-283-3553