Loachy Emergency :'( **Please Help**

[shari2]

You know, it is really hard to say exactly what it is unless you can do a skin scrape and look under the microscope.

Many parasites will cause excess slime production, alot are not visible to the naked eye, and the guess your best by visible symptomology is just that, a guess.

the rapid onset could be a give away for costia, or it could have been that the early stage of velvet was unnoticed. If you know for sure that you'd dealt with velvet in the past, I'd lean toward you simply may not have eliminated the problem, but only set it back enough for the fish to tolerate it. Something would have to have triggered a renewed outbreak, however.

In any case, yes you need an anti parasite med and in the case of the advanced stage fish, I'd say an antibiotic as well. It won't help to cure the parasite if the fish then succumb to a secondary bacterial infection.

I'm sorry I can't be more definitive, and Graeme is as likely to be right as the velvet idea. Without actually identifying the problem the best you can do is treat the symptoms. Wish I could be more help.

[Icewall42]

Everyone has helped a lot, and I'm thankful for it. I'm going to see what I can do.

Edit: I just checked on the modestas again, all three are still alive. The two fish with the lesser infection now have NO white stuff on their heads or bodies. They had it before, but now it's all gone. they just have white patches localized on their gill flaps (on the outside). They look better, but I hope the stuff on the gill flaps goes away too.

The third modesta, the heavily infected one, is still having some balance issues (he flops over, then straightens up), but the white is almost all gone from his body too. He just has what's left on the gill flaps and on his left front fin.

does this mean the treatment is working... or that the infection is simply migrating all to one spot for a deadly assault?

[mikev]

Add Myxo to the list of possibilities.

The symptoms are not inconsistent with it, and rapid dieout is quite possible.

Note that if this is the cause, treatment should be of the anti-protozoan type, even if the culprit is bacteria. Most antibiotics don't work for it.

Here is one thing you can do to possibly help the fish and gain some info: give a symptomatic fish 10 min bath in Meth Blue. Use tank water, add Meth Blue to very dark blue water color (so you cannot see through). Use a separate container, or bucket, don't put Meth into your tank YET. This will not harm the fish, and should wipe out the growth if it is bacterial or fungi.

(Notice that while Meth Blue is generally very safe, if fish is seriously ill already merely catching it to place to the treatment container may kill it.)

Good Luck.

[Icewall42]

I've been looking everywhere for meth blue, but no one seems to carry it... I will just order it online for the next time this happens.

The only anit-protozoan medication I was able to find was Formulin and QuICK, which have formalin and malachite green. But I read that it's poisonous to loaches? Or can I use it?

[mikev]

I'd avoid formalin.

Malachite Green also would work against either protozoa or myxo, but while it is safer for the biofilter it is less safe for fish. Also less effective in bath form than meth blue.

ThatPetPlace carries meth blue.

[shari2]

The forum 'Search' button at the top of the pages can find tons of information. I searched for 'formalin' and found this:
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php ... 96710039d4

You can also find meth blue through science/chemical supply type places - it is used as a fixative for microscope work.

[Icewall42]

Something to think about... if my modestas don't improve anymore, or seem to get worse, I'm going to try the QuICK, which combines the formalin and malachite green (at half dose, as recommended). For the time being, I think the Super Sulfa + Maracyn are helping.

[mikev]

One advantage of Meth over Formalin is that is supplies O2, while Formalin (and Acriflavine) take it away --- not the best thing for loaches, especially already sick. Mal Green is O2-neutral.

There is, however, one more option: salt. Effective against fungi, protozoa, and myxo. Needless to say, not the best thing with loaches, but an option if the situation looks desperate.

Good luck.

[Icewall42]

Oh boy do I trust salt to work well for me. I didn't put too much in, because I was alerted to the fact that Super Sulfa already contains some salt. At first I wasn't sure salt was a good idea for loaches, but I'm changing my mind about it.

Update: 3 infected modestas alive and well. They are swimming around, if not very energetically. Most of the white patches are gone, but I noticed that on the gill flaps, the dead protozoa/fungi/bacteria have left a sort of red rash. It doesn't look seriously... it just looks like a rash inflicted by the white stuff that is now gone. Their breathing is normal (neither rapid nor labored).

[shari2]

Edit: I just checked on the modestas again, all three are still alive.

Good news so far...

The third modesta, the heavily infected one, is still having some balance issues (he flops over, then straightens up), but the white is almost all gone from his body too. He just has what's left on the gill flaps and on his left front fin.

Hopefully, he'll turn the corner, too.

does this mean the treatment is working... or that the infection is simply migrating all to one spot for a deadly assault?

Sounds promising to me, the others kicked off pretty quick. If these guys are still hanging in there at least it's clear they are not getting worse - I hope.

Most of the white patches are gone, but I noticed that on the gill flaps, the dead protozoa/fungi/bacteria have left a sort of red rash. It doesn't look seriously... it just looks like a rash inflicted by the white stuff that is now gone. Their breathing is normal (neither rapid nor labored).

If you're seeing redness, I'd run the full course of Maracyn just to make sure they don't get infected in those red areas. Once the redness is gone, and you've removed the meds with carbon and water changes (here's hoping you get there!) you can use a bit of melafix for a few days to make sure they get well. Melafix is not a med that you can use to treat bacterial infections, but it is a good preventative or for minor fin issues it can help.

[Icewall42]

Thank you, I'm really hoping they make it. What do you mean by running the full Maracyn course? Does that mean I just need to keep up full treatment for the number of days recommended on the medication?

[shari2]

Yep. That's what I meant.

What temp are they at now? The clowns are in the 30 and the modestas are in the bucket? Both getting the same?

I'd search the clowns for the velvet very carefully with a flashlight and treat if you see any signs of it, or excess slime coat. I'd hold off on treating with antibiotics unless they get bad like the modestas. If they were all in the same tank together they were all exposed. Similar to ich where you treat the whole tank, not just individual fish.
In the case of velvet in tropical temps and costia, they reproduce so rapidly it seems to me that it would be best to get all the fish out of the infected tank and start treating right away. That way you stop the parasite at the level it is at and don't have to kill off all the others that are waiting to hatch in the tank.

See if anyone else (like mikev or graeme) would agree or if they'd wait. . .

[Icewall42]

I've scoured the skin of the clowns and the kuhli... I don't see any trace of the infestation. they are indeed in the 30 gallon, with Super Sulfa/Velvet + Maracyn, at about 84F. The modestas are in the bucket with Super Sulfa/Velvet + Maracyn also at 84F. All fish were pulled out of the original infected tank, the 72 gallon bow front. Both quarantines also have a smattering of salt.

I will continue the Maracyn full cycle. The antibiotics were added to the healthy clowns before you mentioned holding off... but they seem okay. They're even begging and nipping at each other.

[Icewall42]

One modesta died this morning. The other 2 are active but very pale, and they keep trying to jump out of the bucket.