looking for some advice?

[Hurricane Charlie]

I didn't mean to sound rude. I know children, and know they like colorful things. However if you want somthing that will work in a 20gal. tall tank, you are pretty limited in loaches. I know I've done the opposite of what I and others are telling you about loaches, but those thoughts and ideas will get my posts deleted apparently.

Instead of getting half one kind of loach and half of another myself personally I'd rather have a larger colony of one kind of loach. If your area is like mine good luck finding either species that you mention above (zippers or kuhlis).

I don't agree that you need a bunch of any one kind of loach. From my experinces 2 loaches will appear just as healthy and active as a group of loaches. Until I became knowledgeable and educated on loaches and bottom feeders in general I always bought two of the same species and they always acted just fine according to how the "experts" say they should act.

Many times you only see one fish of a species. If its a species of loach I wanted to keep in one of my tanks the fact that it is only one wouldn't keep me from getting it if it looked to be healthy.

[eelise]

I only meant that in my experience, I started off with a "compromise" for my son, and ended up with three tanks! fish are more-ish; I didn't mean to sound as if I thought your ideas were bad - just that they feel familiar. I didn;t, however, do what you're doing and get advice first. my mistake!

No offense taken Sophie, I just want to know what would be reasonable to do right now. I hear what you are saying about the future, and I have thought about that. But, right now, I just want to put some fish in there that will be happy. I don't want to put them in conditions that will make them unhappy. For instance, kuhli loaches are not big, could I get a small number of them, would there be enough room? That is all I am trying to figure out. The space in my dauighter's room is very fixed right now as she has a wall unit and 20 ga high is the biggest that fits w/o getting more furniture. so, I am interested in just working with what I have now, when/if I am ready for more of an investment, then I will take that, but I just want to be fair to any fish I buy now, I want them to be happy and I want loaches if possible. If my tank is too small, then, for now I will wait. But, I suspect I could so something, and the kuhli and zipper loach asre the warm water loaches I like most.

[angelfish83]

I didn't mean to sound rude. I know children, and know they like colorful things. However if you want somthing that will work in a 20gal. tall tank, you are pretty limited in loaches. I know I've done the opposite of what I and others are telling you about loaches, but those thoughts and ideas will get my posts deleted apparently.

Instead of getting half one kind of loach and half of another myself personally I'd rather have a larger colony of one kind of loach. If your area is like mine good luck finding either species that you mention above (zippers or kuhlis).

I don't agree that you need a bunch of any one kind of loach. From my experinces 2 loaches will appear just as healthy and active as a group of loaches. Until I became knowledgeable and educated on loaches and bottom feeders in general I always bought two of the same species and they always acted just fine according to how the "experts" say they should act.

Many times you only see one fish of a species. If its a species of loach I wanted to keep in one of my tanks the fact that it is only one wouldn't keep me from getting it if it looked to be healthy.

two of a kind doesnt work as well in my experience. They are much more shy.

[eelise]

I will just have to take my chances with these differing opinions, but, I can say that here is Boston, you can get kuhlis everywhere, and I suspect that if I find the right fish store, they will be happy to special order anything avalable. I guess it is hard to find a concensus, I will go with my gut. I am not particular as to whether I have one or two types of loaches, I am flexible about that. So, if anyone else has an opinion about one or two types of species, I am happy to hear it.

Actually, I remember when I had my weather loaches in a warm water tank (I didn't know then), and I had two weather loaches and one kuhli and another loaches that seemed kind of like a zipper loach (don't really know what it was), and they were all very friendly and social. They came right up to me when I was putting my hands in the tank. So, my little experience says that 3 loaches would be ok, but, like I said before, I had these loaches in 78 degrees, so, perhaps in this area, I am not the best judge. But, they seemed very happy and healthy in their behavior.

[angelfish83]

I will just have to take my chances with these differing opinions, but, I can say that here is Boston, you can get kuhlis everywhere, and I suspect that if I find the right fish store, they will be happy to special order anything avalable. I guess it is hard to find a concensus, I will go with my gut. I am not particular as to whether I have one or two types of loaches, I am flexible about that. So, if anyone else has an opinion about one or two types of species, I am happy to hear it.

Keep in mind some of the stuff you hear here isn't so much opinion, as Loach gospel. Its not an opinion if someone like Martin or Emma, and quite a few others on here tell you.

If you hear it from most of the experts on here, its not an opinion, its just the way it is. If you choose not to go with that, you do so at your own peril. Much in the same way when a mechanic tells you its time to change your break pads, its not an opinion, its the way it is. You may choose to ignore that, and you may be fine, or you may lose control and hit a tree

[sophie]

you could probably go with four or five black kuhlis - you won;t see much of them if you get fewer, and if you put a lot of bogwood in there standing on end and resting against the walls you'll see a lot more of them and they'll have more floor space.

Have you considered cories? they're lovely, and they'v got whiskers (!) and they tend not to need so much space. I've got corydoras aeneus and neon tetras in a my little tank (though I might have to get another bigger one - it never ceases to amaze me how I can work out ways of fitting them in... Beth's clothes cupboard is actually the cabinet bit of an aquarium - and her bedroom is small and such a funny shape you can't fit a full length bed in it!)

[TammyLiz]

I know there are a lot of opinions here but I thought I'd add mine to the mix.

I have been told by a couple loach keepers that kuhlis have normal behavior even down to a 10 gallon tank. I was going to put some in my 20 gallon high but they all died suddenly when I bought them . Anyways, I think if they had survived, they would have been happy in there. Just provide plenty of cover.

[Emma Turner]

I don't agree that you need a bunch of any one kind of loach. From my experinces 2 loaches will appear just as healthy and active as a group of loaches. Until I became knowledgeable and educated on loaches and bottom feeders in general I always bought two of the same species and they always acted just fine according to how the "experts" say they should act.

You might not agree, but you are doing loaches a disservice by suggesting that they'd be happy kept like that. The vast majority of loaches are still wild-caught, and in their native habitats they congregate and go about their business in groups of hundreds or thousands, not ones or twos. Most have a highly complex social structure and keeping one or two in the aquarium is simply cruel.

Emma

[angelfish83]

As was mentioned corys are also fun. I almost like mine more than my loaches.

I think of it as a herd of cows... very cute to watch.

[Hurricane Charlie]

You might not agree, but you are doing loaches a disservice by suggesting that they'd be happy kept like that. The vast majority of loaches are still wild-caught, and in their native habitats they congregate and go about their business in groups of hundreds or thousands, not ones or twos. Most have a highly complex social structure and keeping one or two in the aquarium is simply cruel.

Emma

I think you are giving the fish to much credit. If a fish is acting normal and is healthy what is so cruel? If your going to be that picky about fish numbers then pretty much every species of fish is kept cruley then.

[angelfish83]

You might not agree, but you are doing loaches a disservice by suggesting that they'd be happy kept like that. The vast majority of loaches are still wild-caught, and in their native habitats they congregate and go about their business in groups of hundreds or thousands, not ones or twos. Most have a highly complex social structure and keeping one or two in the aquarium is simply cruel.

Emma

I think you are giving the fish to much credit. If a fish is acting normal and is healthy what is so cruel? If your going to be that picky about fish numbers then pretty much every species of fish is kept cruley then.

Nope. You haven't kept enough kinds of fish or payed close enough attention to the ones you've had if this is your opinion.

Don't take this text in the wrong way. Im saying this very matter of factly and in a calm sympathetic way, but I've seen this many times.

I did work at an LFS. I had several people who insisted based on their own experience that their fish were happy, including a guy with a massive oscar in a forty gallon aquarium..

The unfortunate thing here is that this is not a 'what if' this or that argument. You're wrong, Emma's right. Th-th-th-that's all folks!

There is a massive difference in what I'm seeing between keeping 2 polkadots, and keeping 6 kubotais and 5 rostrata. I had 2 of a kind loaches at one point too, before I learned my lesson, and the loaches were healthy, and they were ok, but their behaviour was, I now realize, extremely timmid and subdued, and they were depressed.

Fish are incredibly intelligent for their size. A Lemon Tetra is exponentially more intelligent in every measurable way than a 12 foot boa constrictor (I was a snake person for 13 years). The fact that they can not speak or have facial expressions makes us forget this sometimes, as does the fact that many fish can be bought with pocket change, but they still need to have their emotional requirements- which they have believe it or not, taken into account.

[Emma Turner]

I think you are giving the fish to much credit. If a fish is acting normal and is healthy what is so cruel? If your going to be that picky about fish numbers then pretty much every species of fish is kept cruley then.

How can you possibly know what is 'normal' in a situation where you have deprived the loaches of more of their own kind? They might be healthy, but their natural behaviour will be very much supressed.
A lot of loach species have highly complex social structures, as pointed out earlier, which means that it is of paramount importance to keep more than one or two fish. You say that means that every species of fish is kept cruely - well that is a completely innacurate statement. Yes, there are many other shoaling species of fish, but not all have these highly complex social structures, therefore they can adapt, providing there is an adequate number of them in order for the group to feel safe. With loaches there is a lot more going on than that. Many loach groups have hierarchies and dominant 'alpha' fish that keep the group in check, for example.

Until I became knowledgeable and educated on loaches and bottom feeders in general I always bought two of the same species and they always acted just fine according to how the "experts" say they should act.

I'm afraid where loaches are concerned, you have a lot more learning to do. None of us know it all, but many of us here have dedicated years to keeping and observing loach species, and something you learn very early on is that they need (not should have, NEED) the company of their own kind.

Emma

[Martin Thoene]

Charley, you can't come on here and make blanket statements like that in the face of vast years of experience of keeping and observing these fish in our aquaria.

It's like me coming on your website and telling you that professional hockey players can get by with one goalie and one player on each side.
They'll probably have a lot of fun, but the spectators won't get the same game as they do with a full team.

Hockey is about two teams trying to get a puck in the back of the net that is defended by a goalie. So theoretically you only need another guy on each side to acheive that. But you know it's more than that, and keeping loaches is more than that.

It's not about you, the spectator, it's about the team....the fish. Believe me, there's a much better game to be seen with a group of loaches than with two. They have their Rod Brind’Amour which is most often actually a female and just like animals such as elephants the decisions of the "Captain" determine the behaviour of the whole group.

I recently had a disaster in my tank with a couple of Tiger barbs dying at the same time as a filter blocked. I lost a whole load more Tiger Barbs, plus 3 Clown Loaches. One of those was the "Alpha" loach, and for quite a while afterwards, the other fish were visibly behaving differently. They lost their leader, their direction. As happens with many such social-structure groups of animals the void needed to be filled and that meant I watched a couple of days of fighting going on between two other large individuals until a victor arose. Now the "team" is settled again because they have a leader.

Don't ever suppose to believe that they're "just fish" or we give them more credit than they're due, because unless you've kept and observed large groups over many years you simply won't understand the nuances of their behaviour and their psychological needs, just as I don't understand the nuances of all the no doubt infinite ways you can wack a hockey puck.

Martin.

[eelise]

Keep in mind some of the stuff you hear here isn't so much opinion, as Loach gospel. Its not an opinion if someone like Martin or Emma, and quite a few others on here tell you.

If you hear it from most of the experts on here, its not an opinion, its just the way it is. If you choose not to go with that, you do so at your own peril. Much in the same way when a mechanic tells you its time to change your break pads, its not an opinion, its the way it is. You may choose to ignore that, and you may be fine, or you may lose control and hit a tree

Perhaps opinion was not the right word. but you all are not saying the same thing. I clearly am a novice compared to you all, and I want to do the right thing. But, I don't have a clear view to go by here, other than, which I already knew and agree, that loaches typically don't like to be alone. I do think though, with my limited experience that some loach species that are closely related, maybe be good as a group, but I am just going to get one kind and get 4 or 5....that is what I think right now. But, I am giong to hang out here a bit more and learn more, to see what other useful information I get.

I do think that if you go with the attitude that fish should be exactly as they are in the wold. then none of us should have a fish tank. While, I do think there are arguments fornot having any animals in captivity, I do think with many animals it can be done in a humane way. I can say that my three little tetras and pigmy corys seem veyr happy. But, they are so little. So, I am going to ponder and lean twowards getting 4 or so small loaches, but, please give me more information, I welcome your views, from your experience, but it would hep to have a concensus to my original question, if you call could do that:)

[angelfish83]

Your three little tetras aren't happy