How do I know if I've fed my loaches too much?

[Jamie]

Hello, I'm new to the forum and I hope that someone can help me. I have six clown loaches in a 29 gallon tank with two malawi cichlids and a pleco. I've since found out from research that cichlids and loaches do not normally make good tankmates (no matter what the pet stores say) but mine get along fine. I have very small, very docile cichlids that keep to themselves. I've also designed the tank to fit my loaches, for the most part. The temp is 78 degrees, there is no ammonia, no nitrite, Ph is 7.0, 150 GH. The loaches range in size from 2-4 inches.
Anyway, I started developing algae in the tank, so I got the pleco a few days ago. The pet store reccommended that I feed vegetables to it and the loaches, and I had read that loaches liked zuchhini and romaine lettuce. So I put a six inch slice of zucchini in the tank and the loaches went crazy for it. Since then, however, they are all swimming vertically at the surface of the water, with their fins clamped. Their coloring still looks fine. Have I fed them too much?
Then, yesteday I noticed that the pleco has ich. I treated the tank yesterday with 2/3 of a dose of Ich clear made by jungle, and then again today (per instructions after a 25% water change) because it still hadn't cleared up. The loaches don't show symptoms yet and I hope I caught it early.
However, please help with the swimming issue and any other knowledge that you may have.

[Blue]

I've since found out from research that cichlids and loaches do not normally make good tankmates (no matter what the pet stores say) but mine get along fine.

Welcome to LOL.

Jamie, what size are these cichlids and what species are they? Just because the get along fine doesn't mean you can get away with the combo. Juveniles do not get as aggressive as the full-grown ones. I'm sorry but the tank is overloaded if you ask me. I am very concerned with the loaches as the tank is not only small but they will eventually be pushed around by the cichlids. Loaches do not like that. My suggestion is to put the loaches in a bigger tank, preferably 75g to start with or replace with smaller ones while rehoming the cichlids.

What species is the pleco?

Anyway, I started developing algae in the tank, so I got the pleco a few days ago.

Plecos are not needed to clean up the algae and the leftovers. You can clean up the algae without the added wastes by a pleco.

[Cook.MN]

Hi Jamie and welcome to the forums.

I don't know much about loaches, just starting to learn myself. But as for the Cichlids a 29 is just too small for most Malawi Cichilds long term. It's fine for a grow out or hospitable tank but anything more then that is just going to be a blood bath...literally.

Malawi Cichlids are aggressive by nature, some more so then others. So would need to get an idea of what Cichlids you are stocking.

My suggestion would be to pick what you want out of your tank and I'm sure the people here can help you with what type of loaches will work with that.

If it Cichilds and loaches you want to keep in a 29 Gallon any African would be difficult as they require different water parameters then loaches, however a dwarf South American Cichlid tank with a school of smaller loaches would be a very interesting and beautiful tank.

[Emma Turner]

Hi Jamie,

Unfortunately, you have been given very bad advice somewhere along the lines. A 29 gallon tank is far too small for any of the species you are keeping. The clown loaches will become stunted by being kept in there, and this will have long-term health implications. Please see here for the conditions they require: http://www.loaches.com/species-index/cl ... cracanthus and http://www.loaches.com/articles/my-clown-loach-aquarium

Could you provide us with a test result for nitrAtes. Also please tell us more about the tank, how it is filtered, if you use additional powerheads for water movement, maintenence regime etc. Did you quarantine the pleco before adding it?

Malawi cichlids are not only a terrible choice for keeping with clown loaches because of the aggression level, but also because their requirements are poles apart. You might find this article of interest: http://www.loaches.com/articles/why-loa ... i-cichlids

If the loaches are hanging at the surface and gasping, you need to increase the oxygen level. Drop the water level by an inch or so, so that the water returning from the filter splashes down onto the water's surface. A small powerhead with the flow diverter angled upwards would help too.

Have you asked the store whether they have had any problems with the rest of the plecos in the tank you bought yours from? How did you acclimatise your fish to your tank? Hopefully others will be able to chime in on your choice of whitespot treatment, as Jungle is not a brand I am familiar with.

Emma

[andyroo]

Jamie,
ah... sounds like your new Pleco brought you Ich. The loaches @ the surface with the fins down probably have infestation in the gills, as the Pleco may have had when it came to you. Loaches have no scales, so are much more susceptible then most other fish. (neither do Plecos, but that's another story)
If you've got loaches you've come to the right place. Over-aerate and crank up temperature by a couple of degrees per day up to maybe 85 or 88. Read and follow the Ich treatment suggestions in the "Sticky" section above. And cross your fingers.

I've made this mistake as well. Learn from it- set up a quarantine (designs on this site) tank and use it for at least 2 weeks with any new purchase.

Also- assume all pet shop clerks are used car salesmen (sorry Emma:) )
Don't automatically take their word as fact. Research and know before you buy.

And get a bigger tank (or 5)
Andrew

[starsplitter7]

Welcome Jamie,

Most of us have made these same mistakes, so don't get discouraged. It is especially difficult when many LFS give out bad advice. Everything you have been told, I have also been told, and most of the info is incorrect.

Let us know where you live, because we may be able to recommend better products for your ICK treatment. I haven't found any of the Jungle Products to be effective. They are the easiest to find, so I have tried them all. Read the Ick sticky at the top of the loach page about temp, etc.

Start saving for a bigger tank. Or look for a local aquarium club or reputable LFS that may be able to take your fish. My LFS will take fish and give me a credit to buy food or other fish for any fish that are too big or aggressive.

There are other fish that would do super well in a 29 if you can't upgrade, but you won't be able to keep the Clowns, Cichlids and Pleco in there much longer) . There are also better algae eaters like Bristlenose Plecos (which stay under 6") and Otocinclus (which like to be in groups and stay around 2" -- don't mistake them for the Chinese algae eaters which are easier to find (if you're in the US, they are at Wal-mart and most PetSmart/Petco, . . . stores and get big and mean).

Good luck! Tanja.

[Diana]

I think the Clown's reaction is to Ich, not a big meal, but yes, 6" long piece of Zuchini is too much unless it is really thin (like a pencil diameter)
I often feed my fish zucchini and other vegetables, and all the tanks put together get about 4" of zucchini, 1" - 1-1/2" in diameter. I slice it thinly (it will be about the size of a silver dollar) and microwave it until it is no longer quite so white in the middle.

Rid Ich is the Ich medication that I read about most often as being safer than others for Loaches and catfish.

None of the meds work that fast.

Ich lives on the fish for several days, and cannot be harmed by medicines while it is on the fish. Raising the temperature will make it fall off the fish sooner. It falls to the bottom of the tank. Here is your first chance to get rid of it: Do LOTS of water changes that emphasize gravel vacs. The more Ich you can remove the fewer there are to re-infest the fish. Daily or every other day is good. The water changes do not need to be very big, but do a thorough cleaning of the bottom each time.
After it has fallen to the bottom Ich reproduces. Each one divides in to hundreds of babies that swim around to find a host. There are three ways to attack them now: These babies can be killed by medicines, by a UV sterilizer, and you can remove them by water changes.
Continue whatever treatment you are doing for at least 3 days past the date you last saw any spot on any fish. Then lower the temperature slowly, about 1 degree per day until the temperature is about 80*F (Optimum for Clown Loaches)

Ditto the others' remarks: Your tank cannot continue the way it is:
Clown Loaches are fish that thrive in soft, acidic water, with lots if water movement. African Rift Lake fish thrive in hard, alkaline water with a different sort of water movement.
Both groups of fish are often cave dwellers, preferring arches, rock piles and so on. There is such limited space in a 29 that I am surprised you have not already had problems.
Depending on the species the Africans might stay in the 29, though it is far from ideal, but a CL that is already 4" ought to be in a 4' long tank, at least. Both groups of fish prefer the bottom areas, and a tall tank does not offer as much space for them as a tank with similar gallons, but built longer.

[Jamie]

First, thank you to everyone that has relplied to my message. The advise has been invaluable and eye-opening, to say the least. I'm definitely a researcher and an academic (I'm a Chicago-based law student), and I have done a lot of research on my fish (after I bought the tank and the first batch of 3 loaches and 2 cichlids that the pet store recommended). I guess I thought, though, based on the way the they've been doing (energetic, playful, being left alone by the cichlids), that I was immune to the warnings that I had read. So, again, thank you all so much. I definitely have some redesigning to do.

[starsplitter7]

Since you're in the US, you should be able to get Rid Ick like Diana recommended. Solve your ick problem first. Good luck. Tanja.

[Jamie]

what size are these cichlids and what species are they?

The cichlids are Sciaenochromis fryeri (Commonly known as Electric Blue Cichlids from Lake Malawi.

What species is the pleco?

I'm not sure about the pleco, but from looking at different descriptions, I think it is the Common Pleco. I don't know a scientific name.

What is your advice on new tank set ups if I want to keep all my fish? I also have a ten gallon with three black skirt tetras and southern platy.
Is it possible to remove the cichlids for now, and put the tetras and platy with the loaches, so that I can make the ten gallon a quarantine tank?

[Jamie]

Could you provide us with a test result for nitrAtes. Also please tell us more about the tank, how it is filtered, if you use additional powerheads for water movement, maintenence regime etc. Did you quarantine the pleco before adding it?

My NitrAtes are between 20 and 40 ppm (mg/L)
I have two filters in the tank, a Whisper 30 gallon and an Aquaclear 30 gallon.
I don't use additional powerheads. Can you actually give me some advice on setting powerheads up. I know that the loaches love currents and isince I'm going to remove the cichlids, I'd like to create an environment for them.
I do a 10-20% water change per week. I monitor the water conditions daily. However, I don't have a quarantine or hospital tank set up, so the pleco went right in the day I got him.

If the loaches are hanging at the surface and gasping, you need to increase the oxygen level. Drop the water level by an inch or so, so that the water returning from the filter splashes down onto the water's surface.

Thanks for the advice. I'm about to do that. They don't seem to be doing any better today.

Have you asked the store whether they have had any problems with the rest of the plecos in the tank you bought yours from? How did you acclimatise your fish to your tank? Hopefully others will be able to chime in on your choice of whitespot treatment, as Jungle is not a brand I am familiar with.

The pet store claims that all their fish have been healthy. The pleco's white spots seem to be diminishing now. I hope I diagnosed him correctly. He seems fine other than his dusting of white dots. He's eating and seems to be breathing fine.
When I put him in the tank, I put the bag at the surface for about 20 minutes and then slowly mixed the waters until I let him free.
As for the loaches, they don't seem to show any signs of ich yet. What should I be looking for besides white spots? Their gills don't look red. Do you think the medicine I gave is affecting them?


Emma[/quote]

[Jamie]

crank up the temperature by a couple of degrees per day up to maybe 85 or 88.

I can't move the cichlids yet (no where to put them). Will the raised temp hurt them? I know their typical max temp is 79 degrees. Thanks!

[andyroo]

Jamie,
Print all that's been said here, bag up everybody in the 29 and and go back to the shop demanding to speak to the manger in your best lawyer's voice.
Do it today, (Saturday) as the shop will be packed. Show manager all the LOL input plus whatever else you can get from the net, waiving the papers in the air "court room" dramatically and demand full-value refund or +20% store credit as you were "actively, mercenarily and irresponsibly sold on misinformation."
Don't mention the Ich.

THEN: Cure the fishless 29 (bleach? Salt? Dry-out? Crank heat w/o fish for a week?) then reset the filters and put the tetras back and let them get settled, and set up the platty in the 10g with a boy-friend and some rams horn snails- that can then still serve as your quarantine. Then take your refund (store credit?) back and load-up with a little power-head, some rooting plants and a school of smaller botia-style loaches. Less colour then the Clowns, but same personality, better patterns and a great place to start. The folk on this forum will be able to tell you which ones to order/go for based on what you want.

Bob's your uncle. Now you've got 10 years of after work/exam zone-out relaxation therapy.

A
ps: yes, thoroughly irresponsible to put the fish back into the lion's den and not to treat the Ich first, as the shop apparently wasn't that interested.
pps: if the shop is saying the rest of the plecos are still fine it might not be a bad idea to send/post photos of a) the pleco's white spots and b) your clamp-fin clowns for a final ID.

[starsplitter7]

I don't know cichlids well, but most of the posts I have read say that most fish can tolerate a week to 10 days at 82-86 to heat out the ick (Clowns like to be at 82 degrees normally). If you are not returning the fish right now, you will need to:

1.) Lower the water level and increase oxygen

2.) Slowly raise the temp so not to shock your fish to 82-86 degrees.

3.) Treat your fish for Ick with Rid Ick (half dosage is usually necessary for loaches)

3.) Vacuum daily to remove the ick parasite as it drops off your fish. The only time it is vulnerable is when it drops off the fish. (One of the reasons a quarantine tank is nice, is that it allows you to treat with a bare tank [no gravel or sand] making it easier to vacuum parasites. )

You can have Ick and not see it. Because Pleco catfish are armored they are better protected than small scale/no scale loaches. The ick can be in gills and you can't see it.

The more air you add to the tank, the easier it will be on your fish.

Try to get your Nitrates below 20. The nitrates will irritate your already stressed fish.

When you treat, remove your charcoal.

I change out 25% of my water in all my tanks weekly, but I do bigger water changes than others.

When you acclimated the Pleco, did you put any of the bag water in your tank? If you do not know, never add the bag water to your tank. I usually drip acclimate all my fish, which means that I will take my new fish and put them in a deep bucket or very deep bowl with their bag water. Then I take an air hose, and run it from the quarantine tank to the bucket with the new fish. I tie a knot in the hose and then start a siphon. I adjust the tightness of the knot to regulate how fast the water goes from the quarantine tank to the new fish, usually a dribble. After an hour I will add the new fish to the quarantine tank, and throw away the water in the bucket. This allows temp acclimation and acclimation to a different pH or other water parameters.

Normally I would keep the Tetras and Platys with the clowns and the cichilds in anther tank, but since the clowns are ill, don't expose the tetras or platys or they may get sick too.

I just went to PetSmart and there were many Powerhead models available. I picket up three. Mine have an added benefit of having a sponge filter so they work as another filter in my tank.
Read the instructions carefully. If you point the nozzle across the water, it will make turbulence on the surface of the water, increasing oxygen and flow. Don't let the nozzle point straight up. It can squirt water out of the tank. There's also an air tube addition for additional oxygen.

[Jamie]

1.) Lower the water level and increase oxygen

2.) Slowly raise the temp so not to shock your fish to 82-86 degrees.

3.) Treat your fish for Ick with Rid Ick (half dosage is usually necessary for loaches)

3.) Vacuum daily to remove the ick parasite as it drops off your fish. The only time it is vulnerable is when it drops off the fish. (One of the reasons a quarantine tank is nice, is that it allows you to treat with a bare tank [no gravel or sand] making it easier to vacuum parasites. )

Thanks for the advice!
I've lowered the water level (removed 3 gallons) and vacuumed the gravel.

The carbon has been out of the filter since I started treating (two days ago)

I raised the temp by a degree (now 79 degrees)

Will it matter if I treat with Rid Ich right after treating with a different medication? The Ich Clear specifies that I can add another dose every 24 hours with a 25% water change before each dose. I treated with the Ich Clear last night. If I do a 25% water change tonight and put the new medicine in, will that be okay for the fish?

You can have Ick and not see it. Because Pleco catfish are armored they are better protected than small scale/no scale loaches. The ick can be in gills and you can't see it.

The loaches are now scratching/rubbing themselves on the rocks. Should I treat with anything in addition to the Ich medicine to prevent secondary infections?