Advice about pH too high

[Stucky]

Hello. I'm from London and the natural pH of my tap water is around 8.0/8.2. I don't want to use any chemicals to lower the pH. I have a bogwood and stones but they don't help lowering it. I've done some research and the problem is that the London water is just too hard.

Now, I was thinking of buying some Dwarf Loach (Yasuhikotakia sidthimunki), but I am afraid of them being too sensitive to high pH. The people in my LFS say that almost all of their fish are all farm bread with a pH water of around 8.0 and that I shouldn't worry about this.

What do you guys think? Should I go for them or not?

I have a 60cm x 30cm x 50cm tank. 90L. With 12 Glowlight Danios, and it is running for 9months with no deaths and no problems.

Thanks a lot,
Stucky

[Diana]

To lower the pH you need to look first at what is holding it at that level. Usually the KH (Carbonate Hardness or Alkalinity) is high. This resists changes to the pH. If you add any acids the pH will drop for a short while (hours, maybe) then rebound to where it was.

The key to controlling the pH is to remove the carbonates from the tap water, or add water with no carbonates and dilute the amount on the tap water.

Carbonates are measured on 2 scales: German degrees of Hardness and ppm. Parts per million is the same as milligrams per liter, so you may also see it written mg/l. 1 German degree of Hardness = 17.9 ppm.

If the KH is under about 5 degrees or 100 ppm then the water is probably fine for all soft water fish, and it is pretty easy to change the pH by adding peat moss to the filter.
Between 5-10 degrees the water will resist change, but is still probably soft enough for most soft water fish, but not all.
Over 10 degrees the carbonates will buffer the pH back up to whatever it was. Best solution here is to add water that has no carbonates, such as reverse osmosis water. You are diluting the carbonates, and this allows the pH to change.

HOWEVER!!!

Fish are not so interested in pH as they are in GH, General Hardness. This is a measure of calcium and magnesium. Often KH and GH are similar, because one of the major sources of these minerals in water is calcium carbonates and magnesium carbonates.

If the GH is under 10 then most soft water fish will be fine, though some will not breed successfully. Some of the more particular fish cannot handle this high GH. Mostly these are South American fish from the Amazon rain forest such as Discus and Cardinal Tetras. Hatchery raised fish from these sources seem to adapt in a few generations to the harder water.

SO.... back to the question:
Are Sids or other Loaches OK when the pH is so high?

Answer: What is the GH of the water?
Is the pH stable?

[Stucky]

Hi Diana. Thanks for yor post.

Tbh I just got really confused. I just went to my LFS to buy a kit to measure GH. I bought a Tetra kit. It says to add 1 drop at a time into 5ml of water and check when the water changes from green to red, and then the GH value will the number of drops. In fact I never see green, wth the first drop I see a very faint orange, and with 3 I see a nice orange, but only with 10 I see a proper red. Nonetheless, they say that if I see a color change with the first drop it means the GH is between 0 and 1. But is very faint. Only with 3 I see a proper color.

Does this mean my water is not hard?

On top of this I also measured the pH and the high range pH. I have an API kit for this.

The normal pH is the maximum the test can measure, 7.6, but the color is not darker than what is supposed to be when it is 7.6. And when I measure the high range pH it goes to around 8.2.

So, with all this I got really confused and I don't know if the pH of my water is actually 7.6 and the GH 3º.

Can you please enlighten me on this?

Thanks a lot,
Stucky

[Stucky]

Any help on this? Please?

Thanks,
Stucky

[OneWay]

Hi there,

I have the same problem as you do and here is how I got around it with very little cost. Ph down for vast amounts of water is down right ridiculous. So, the 1st link is the site I 1st found on google and used his idea.

The 2nd link is just another site that is quite informative.

Lastly I am quoting my own link and showing my peat moss water filter. I have had to change my moss about every 4-5 months.

Hope this helps,

Fred


http://www.marksfish.me.uk/index.php/Ti ... ering.html
"Water comes out of the tap at a pH of 8.3 and with a carbonate hardness of 13, enough to stand a spoon in!! After filtering, the results are pH 5 and KH 3, quite a difference huh? As with reverse osmosis and other purification devices, it is necessary to rebuild your water to the required consistency using plain tap water."

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/f ... ning.shtml
"Peat filtration. Peat also softens water slightly, and the way it does this has the effect of reducing the pH. The complicated organic molecules of humic substances in peat bind the positively-charged calcium and magnesium ions and exchange them for positively-charged hydrogen ions. The more free H+ ions, the lower the pH, by definition. "

The other thing I have had to deal with is my Tap water has a Ph of
greater than 9, my test kit does not go any higher. With the Ph so high my
RO unit only dents the Ph. So after a bit of Google work I decided
to filter the water through peat moss.


Peat Moss Filter
I have a bucket filled with peat moss, hole stoppered
with filter floss in the bottom, and let gravity do the rest.


Water with powerhead and heater,, look at all those tannins!!!!


Nope not beer, that is the water after it is filtered.


The Ph coming out of the filter has a Ph of ~5.0. It is very soft and and with a very low Ph.

Together with straight RO water I get my Ph to 6.8-7.0 a lot easier than before
So far the carbon has been doing a fine job of keep the tannins to a
minimum, although i do not mind it and the loaches love it.


Just wanted to post this here in case anyone else might find it useful

OneWay

[JonasBygdemo]

Seems like a good method. Will the filter floss need changing, or is it just there to slow the waterflow? Besides filtering the peat of course.

[Stucky]

Thanks for the reply OneWay. I'll try that if my water really has a pH of around 8.2. Because after doing the GH test I just got confused.

Is it possible to have a water with pH 8.2 and then GH of 1 or 3 degrees? Or perhaps my water doesnt even have a pH as high as I thought?

What I mean my water not having a pH as high as I thought its due to the fact that when I do the normal pH test the water is exactly the same color as it is supposed to be when the pH is 7.6, but the test only measures up until 7.6. If it was higher should it be darker? Or should it be the same as 7.6?

Sorry if I'm not making myself clear.

Stucky

[mickthefish]

Stucky do you live near to wholesale trop or can you get there, take a phial of water and they will tast it for you and also give you good advice on how to lower your GH. hope this helps mate.
i'm from manchester and don't have probs with our water, in fact i have to add things to raise the GH.

mick

[Stucky]

thanks mickthefish. I'll do that. I guess the GH of my water is between 1 and 3 degrees. Is it possible to have a water with pH 8.2 and GH 3, for example?

Thanks,
Stucky

[mickthefish]

yes mate, the PH isn't that important its the GH that needs altering.

mick

[Stucky]

Ok. So it means that if the GH of my water is around 3, is it good for fish or not? I've been having 12 Glowlight Danios in those conditions for about a yer and they are very fine. No deaths.

Thanks a lot,
Stucky

[mickthefish]

it's ok Stucky if your buying fish locally as they will be acclimatised to your tap water same wqith the loaches bud.

mick

[OneWay]

Seems like a good method. Will the filter floss need changing, or is it just there to slow the waterflow? Besides filtering the peat of course.

I change it with the peat moss. It is there to prevent the peat moss ending up in the "treated" water. However, the waterflow in this set up is extremely slow. I have now experimented with it.

So to improve the process, I made the hole bigger in the bottom of the bucket, placed a power head filter hard plastic "cone" in the hole. Then I took a 4"W x 10"L filter media bag w/ draw strings and stuffed it full of filter floss. I used the draw strings to tighten the bag closed and to tie it off over the top of the power head plastic cone.

The bag is upright in the center of the bucket surrounded by peat moss on all sides. The water movement is amazingly fast with out any noticable change in water quality.

The removeable cone:


The filter media bag, similar to these:

[JonasBygdemo]

So how do you go about doing this? Do you start the process a day or so before changing water, or can this be done the same day as the waterchange? Sorry if I'm hijacking the thread, but I'm interested in this as well.

[Diana]

Sounds to me like the GH is about 3 degrees, very soft and fine for the soft water fish. Ignore the pH.

Sounds like the pH is 8.2. Ignore the low range pH test. When it tops out the pH is higher than it can test. Believe the high range test.

Do you have a KH test? (Carbonate, Alkalinity) If you still want to alter the pH, then knowing the KH will be helpful. High KH =lots of work. Low KH = piece of cake!

Whatever method you think about, test it in a bucket to see if
a) It works at all
b) it creates a stable water chemistry that will not vary between water changes.

My tap water:
GH and KH are pretty close to 5 degrees most of the time (pluss or minus about 1 degree seasonally)
pH is in the low 8s most of the time, has be tested at 9 at a friend's house. Might sometimes be in the upper 7s in the winter.

How I handle it:
Peat Moss.

I set up a garbage can with a knee-hi stocking of peat moss. I run warm water (hot and cold out of the tap) into the can and circulate it for about 24 hours. GH and KH are still pretty much the same, but the pH has dropped to something close to neutral. The water is very faintly colored with tannin. I could probably rig up something better to ensure that there is better circulation through the peat moss, but for me the way it works is fine.

Here is a lot more info about pH, KH, and GH, and the connection between these values:

http://www.aquaria.info/index.php?name= ... nvolutions*