Loaches Online Forum

I had my first 30 G tank about 1 year ago, made a lot of mistakes, really a lot of mistakes, hopefully got most of them out of the way. I have just upgraded to a 65 G tank 3 months ago and would like to add 6 Clowns and 6 Kubotais – was thinking that this could be on the borderline for my setup. Would be very interested to hear other, more learned opinions.

Current tank setup.

Tank
1.2m length (48 inches), .4m width (16 inches) .5m height (20 inches) 240 Litros (65 Gallons I think?)
Homemade stand and hood, sand substrate. Water filled to an inch from top.

Filters + Power heads
2 x Aquaclear 70’s HOB filters, 300Gph each, total 600 Gph (clean filters once a month, one every 2 weeks. The filters are raised 2 inches above the tank for more water movement and aeration)
1 x Aquaclear 50 powerhead with Quick filter attachment that runs a Terminator 9w UV filter. 200 Gph
1 x Koralia 3 power head. Rated at 800 Gph (if had time over again would go for Koralia2

Current Fish
10 Neon Tetras
10 White cloud mountain minnows (tanichy’s)
2 Honey Gouramis
1 Pearl Gourami (4 inches long)

Current Water
27 C (80F)
6.8 to 7.0 PH (very stable)
5 to 7 Hardness
0 Nitrites or Ammonia
3 Nitrate (changing 20% water 2 times per week, once have loaches will probably change 3 time a week)

Lighting
4x 20 W standard – not too bright
Moonlights - Blue

Tank was setup 3 months ago and designed for loaches specifically, I basically tipped the contents in from my 30G tank over a few days, it had been setup for about 9 months. Changeover went well, didn’t loose any fish in first month and Ammonia and Nitrite levels didn’t spike. I did water changes of 20% every second day just in case. Water is quite stable now and clear, the Aquaclear powerhead 50 with quick filter attachment connected to a UV filter really cleared the water up. Got rid of the green tint and removed fine particles that you could see from the sides. Like night and day really. I introduced the Uv after I lost 3 Kubotais from white Spot in my 30 G about 5 months ago, hopping this ads some protection in the future. Was devastated when lost them, think it was due to adding a new fish without Q process.

I have a small Q tank running now, was thinking of putting the honey gouramis in there permantly.

Anyway, have been reading this forum for about a year, haven’t bothered posting because didn’t think I could ad much, maybe a list of what not to do. However getting to the stage now where I could ad a little. My question is would my current setup be ok to add 6 clowns and 6 kobutais without stressing it? One thing that does worry me is living in Rio de Janeiro we get frequent power outages, usually 2 to 4 hours once a month. I have 2 battery operated air filters to drop in the tank to keep some circulation. I would think that I would probably upgrade to a 100+G tank in 12 months, maybe less (already making notes!) hence my setup would only be holding smallish clowns. Any tips or criticisms would be very welcome.

I think there are some issues with your current fish, but it seems to be working. However:

10 Neon Tetras. Small fish, may get eaten. Prefer cooler tank, in the low 70s F. (20-26*C)
10 White cloud mountain minnows (Tanichthys) Same as the Neons, but more so. Smaller fish, and cooler water. upper 60sF, 18-22*C. These guys come from cooler mountain streams.
2 Honey Gouramis- Good for the warm, soft water, but I do not put several Anabantoids in the same tank. Granted Pearls and Honeys are among the more peaceful of their family, so they are OK so far. I would make sure that there are tall plants that can help these guys define a territory.
1 Pearl Gourami (4 inches long) Same note as Honey Gouramis. Pearls are pretty peaceful, usually, but I do not ask them to get along with other closely related fish (Gouramis, Bettas, Paradise Fish)

I would ultimately move the WCM to the 30, and lower the temperature by 1*C or 2*F per day. Set up a river tank, and add some Hillstream Loaches. Temporariy, though the 30 will make a great quarantine tank for the new fish.

The larger tank is cycled for that many fish, your current bioload. When you add more fish the bacteria will have to grow to meet their waste load. Here is what I would do: (See notes below about cycling. These notes apply to almost every step here)

1) Do the fishless cycle in the 2 tanks (30 and smaller tank).

2) Set up the 30 gallon as a quarantine tank. Buy the Kubotai Loaches. Medicate for internal parasites.

3) A month after the medicine has cleared move them to the main tank. Add the cycled media from the smaller tank to the main tank to boost the bacteria population.

4) Set up the 30 again, clean it really well and repeat the fishless cycle to keep the bacteria going until you are ready to get the Clown Loaches. The bacteria may already be well established from keeping the Kubotai in this tank. Test by adding ammonia, just like the fishless cycle. If the bacteria handle this just fine, go ahead and get the Loaches. If the bacteria need some time to build up again after you cleaned the tank then continue with the fishless cycle.

5) Set up the fishless cycle again in the small tank.

6) As soon as the small tank is ready move the WCM out to your this smaller tank.

7) Begin lowering the temperature for the WCM. (1*C per day or 2*F)

8.) When the fishless cycle is done in the 30 get the Clown Loaches. Treat them for internal parasites. A month after the treatment is done, move them into the main tank.

9) Clean the 30 again, and set up a cool river tank for the WCM and other fish from a similar habitat. Darter Tetras, fresh water Gobies, Hillstream Loaches and others are good tank mates for these fish. You can move the cycled media from the small tank when you move the WCM.

10) Grow more bacteria in the small tank and cycle it as a quarantine tank for Hillstream Laoches and other fish that can join the WCM in the cool river tank.
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In all these moves and fish purchases be very careful that the tanks have a good population of nitrifying bacteria. When you moved the fish from the 30 to the 65 you moved as much as possible everything, and did extra water changes. This is exactly right. Preserve the bacteria the best you can, then take precautions just in case.

When you buy a small number of fish for a quarantine tank you can simply share a little media from a cycled tank. I have taken as much as 25% of the media from a cycled filter and not had a problem with the donor tank.

Another way to do this is to buy Nitrospiros bacteria. There are only 3 products that have these bacteria. All others are a waste of money. Microbe Lift's Nite Out II, Dr. Tim's One and Only and Tetra Safe Start are the right ones. Add some of this to any tank that needs more bacteria right before you add the fish (half hour or so, I think- Read the label). Keep the rest in the fridge for the next batch of fish, or the next time you move fish around. Sharing some media, and adding a little of one of these to both the donor tank and the new tank is a very good way to go.

Another method is to use the fishless cycle to grow your own bacteria. This takes about 3 weeks, so it takes some planning. If you start now you could have a great population in the smaller tank to be ready to hold the WCM, and if you were willing to hold off on buying the Loaches for a bit you could also grow all the bacteria the 30 gallon will need when you use it for a quarantine tank.

http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=16737

Thanks for your time and comments Diana. I have read a lot of your writings over the last year and really appreciate them.

Basically all of what you have said makes sense and I have printed it and will work it in with my strategy, in a perfect world I would basically follow it. Planning is half the fun I find! Will move the smaller fish when receive the loaches. The one issue I have living in Rio is that not all species are readily available and hence difficult to plan adding fish, it is more a matter of grabbing the opportunity when it is there. For example, I have been after Kobutais for 3 months, my LFS which is one of the only ones where I have seen Kobutais in Rio. It has had only 2 lots in the last 3 months, both were in such bad condition i passed on them. They only receievd lots of 3 and 5 fish total in 3 months. Clowns are more readily available. Tend to arrive in groups of 50 in several aquarium shops.

I have read a lot about Gouramis being together and causing issues, I had a male Dwarf Gourami and it would fight with everything, he eventually got an infected mouth for his troubles and passed. All the gouramis I have are females and are buddies, the 2 Honeys are always together. Once I seperated the Pearl and the Honeys into different tanks and they were quite upset about it. Had to put them back together. Hence am thinking, as you said, them being the more peaceful of the species, that they could co exist. Hopefully will continue. Definitely will not add any males, that would just be asking asking for trouble.

Just a couple of questions.

What medications would you use for the Quarantine process?

Secondly. I have a Aquaclear 50 filter as well, flow rate is about 170gph?. I keep it running in the 65g all the time, have moved it to the 30g a few times with water from the 65g and it seems to be more or less instantly cycled. I changed 20% of the water every other day. Is this a reasonable thing to do in place of doing a fishless cycle in the 30g?

Lastly, would adding 3 Kobutais soon and then adding another 3 say a month or 2 later be an issue? May be an option because of the issue outlines above in getting stock. I had 1 Kobutai originally and got 2 more a month later and the original Kobutai harassed the 2 new comers for 2 weeks, was just relentless. Was wondering if adding 3 new comers to an existing lot of 3 would lead to relentless harassment until they all settle down. The original 3 became best of buddies eventually, but must have been stressful for the newcomers. They really didn't eat well for a month.

I have not had that sort of problem with Kubotais. They seemed quite agreeable, not prone to arguing.

Yes, female Gouramis are usually much less pushy than the males. You have a group that works, so stick with it!

I understand the difficulty in getting quality fish in quantities. Here is how I would handle it:

When the fish are available, grab them.

Optimum would be to then put the new fish in a quarantine tank by themselves. Sometimes you will have to add them to some fish that are already in quarantine. This resets the clock on the quarantine in case the new fish are carrying something. My basic rule is that the quarantine tank needs to be going for a month after any medication has cleared, a month after any fish deaths... or any other reason. When the fish in the Q-tank have shown that they are healthy, then move them to the main tank.

The other issue is the amount of Nitrospiros bacteria in the various tanks. Add up all the bacteria in all the tanks. It matches the fish load in these tanks. This bacteria population can usually be shared among the tanks so that you might be able to care for a few more fish, but not a large increase all at once. If you have enough bacteria for 50 fish, and you get 10 more, this is not much of a problem. But if you get a good deal on another 50 fish, you do not have enough bacteria to safely handle that large increase, no matter how you move the bacteria around.

If you have a couple of tanks running and want to get a Q-tank up fast you can snag up to 25% of the media from the established tanks to seed the new tank. There is more bacteria in the gravel and on the decorations to help replace the ones you took. Doing some extra water changes on both the donor tanks and the new set up is always a good idea. Moving a cycled filter to the new tank will move a lot of bacteria, and this is an instant cycle, as long as the established tank has another, usually larger filter. This is the way I set up a new tank fast, also. Just move a small filter off a larger tank.
No matter how you move it around, though, you still only have just that much bacteria.

Here is how you get around that:
You can anticipate the need for more bacteria and raise your own by adding ammonia to a bucket and running a filter in the bucket. See the fishless cycle.
The point of the fishless cycle is that the fish are not exposed to the ammonia and nitrite (both toxic substances) that happen in an uncycled tank. By doing the fishless cycle in a bucket you are growing more bacteria than if you just ran the filter on an established tank.

I alternate treating bottom dwelling fish with a wormer for internal parasites and an antibiotic.

Levamisol
Kanamycin OR Maracyn + Maracyn II
Prazi Pro

By using 2 wormers with different actions, there is a greater chance of killing whatever internal parasites the new fish might be carrying.
Do some research about whichever wormers are available.
Some dog and cat wormers can be used on fish with the proper preparation.

Great thanks again Diana.