Waking up to devistation...

[chris1932]

Hello everyone. Upon waking this morning I ran upstairs to check on my newest arrivals. All had perrished overnight. After the sad task of getting them out I ran extensive water tests.

Temp 70.2
pH 6.58
Nitrite .006
Nitrate .070
Amonnia .003
Total Hardness 10ppm x .058=.58 grains per gallon
Kh 46
Gh 60
Po4 .08
conductivity 20moh
neutral conductivity 15moh
Tannic content 26ppm
turbidity .08ntu
Fe .04
Chlorine nd
Chlorine Dioxide nd
Silicates nd


I also did a general screen for toc and heavy metals and all came up at non detectable levels. Fish showed some hemoraging around caudal fin area.

I ran all of my tests once with Hagen drop test kits and once with a Hach colorimeter that I use at work. I double tested the colorimeter and all results are within .1% of the standard.

They went into their own new river tank cycled with water from the 30 gal river tank, and one set of used fluval sponges in a new 405.

I cant seem to figure out what I did wrong??? I am very sad about this.

[Jim Powers]

How terrible...and frustrating for you.
I suspect you did nothing wrong, though. I just think these fish don't ship that well. The first one I got was from a batch that seemed fine and first, but all died over the course of a few days. All were dead within a week. These fish, too, exhibited the hemoraging.
Lets hope you will be able to get more soon.

[Bitey]

What was your acclimation procedure, if any?

[Martin Thoene]

Tough news chris. I'm certain it's nothing that you did wrong. Following Jim's bad experience and others I've heard of it seems possible that the trauma of capture and transport is really tough on this species. It could possibly be a Flexibacter infection brought on by dirty water or low oxygen in transit. Red areas around the dorsal is a common site for flexibacter signs. It's a rapid killer.

I've been incredibly lucky with my 5 stripey dudes. The first batch my supplier got in all died. Try and try again. All I can say is that once you get good healthy ones established in your tank, they are no problem to keep.

I'm intrigued by your detailed water analysis. You have parameters there I've never seen quoted before. What DO you do as a job may I ask?

Martin.

[helen nightingale]

sorry to hear of your bad news.

which of your tests did you do with hagen tests, and which did you have to do at work? they look to be very accurate. i hope you get to the bottom of the problem, and next time you have a better experience.

[chris1932]

Martin

I work for a water treatment chemical company named Guardian Chemical Specialties Corp. I personally do water and waste water treatment chemistries for Industry and municipalities. IE clarification, dewatering, sludge treatments, for industries. Mostly pulp and paper mills with some metal platers and general production stuff spattered in here and there. It is an interesting job and I get to make a difference, most of the places I deal with discharge into tributary rivers and these rivers have fish in them. The tannin test is a very old test. Tannic acid is the majority of blackwater. Tannins used to be used a a boiler water treatment because it softens. The tannin test looks at tanic content by filtering out kh gh and t alk. resulting in almost di water, phenolthaline is then used to titrate back to a negitave endpoint. It tells me when I need new peat. Turbidity is a measure of clarity 0 ntu would be perfectly clear resultant higher numbers would be cloudy. NSF drinking water standards in the US are less than .50ntu. Sometimes if you run a turbidity on clear water and get a false high reading it tells you there is interference from heavy metals.

Someone else asked me about acclimating new arrivals. I float the bag for one hour. Cut the bag open net out the fish and put them directly where they will live. If there is a water issue with the bag water I do not want it effecting my tanks. For example and this is purely an example if you kept African Cichlids you go home with your captive breed fish in a water of 6.5 and start acclimating your tank water into a specimen container with a pH of 8.5, any amonnia becomes toxic. This was learned the hard way.

I will keep trying. If I can keep Altums I figure I can keep anything.

Chris

[chris1932]

I did the amonnia nitrite and nitrate tests with Hagen kits. I redid them with a Colorimeter to double/tripple check.

Here is the instrument I used
http://www.hach.com/hc/search.product.d ... 09QWxSUQ==|

WOW long link

Chris

[wasserscheu]

... very sorry to hear, Chris

You will find strong and healthy ones. Appears like they had bacteria...there was most likely nothing that could have been done about it. I had some cat´s once that died soon, the dealer confessed later on that he had bacteria in the shipment...

... additionally to adapting watertemperature, I start mixing the water in the bag with the tank-water in increasing increments. I try to keep the capture stress low and put them in the water within 20minutes.
I take them very gently out by hand and let them swimm off the flat hand.
I don´t really mean to recommend that, as it goes quicker to catch via net, but I just like it that "personal" way (I move my hand very very slowly into the bag and move them over the fingers carefully...)

[Jim Powers]

That link didn't work.
I use a Hach colorimeter for my field work and used to have one that would do many tests. I never thought about using it for tank water analysis. I now just use the pocket variety to check fluoride levels.
They are nice pieces of equipment.

[Bitey]

Someone else asked me about acclimating new arrivals. I float the bag for one hour. Cut the bag open net out the fish and put them directly where they will live.

In all likelihood, that inadequate acclimation procedure is what killed the fish.

[Curtis]

If the fish have been shipped in bags and have been in the bag for a day or more then I feel that the ammonia in the bag is a huge issue. If we are just talking about an hour drive or so from the store, I'm not sure the ammonia has spiked enough to be a major problem.

When dealing with local store purchases I mix the water for acclimation. If it's a fish that has been shipped I use the float and then put fish in water method due to the high ammonia concentrations.

[chefkeith]

I agree with Bitey. Acclimation needs to be done to prevent osmotic shock.

Here's an article aboout osmotic shock-
http://aquafacts.net/wiki/index.php/Osmotic_shock

[chefkeith]

Treating the bag water with something like Prime or Amquel+ could prevent Ammonia from becoming toxic.

[chris1932]

I purchase most of my fish directly from an importer. Some are added to his tanks others are not. I have some wild discus, altum angels, neons, all wild, all considered delicate. None of these fish go through a long process of acclimation. I have many loaches. None went through long acclimation. When I receive my postmortem report I will let you know exactly why these fish expired. I am devistated over this loss. I have waited a month for shipment and looked for over six months for these fish. I am not a novice. I do not loose fish due to stupidity. You do things your way. I will do them mine. I do sometimes check in bag pH. I do sometimes check conductivity. I have Oakton and Hach digital meters for checking these. I do this only when I suspect an issue is present. Out of the 200 Sewellia in the shipment 200 died. Almost all of them within a six hour period. The issue is clearly how they were shipped from Vietnam.

[Martin Thoene]

I must be a complete philistine you know? For 42 years of fishkeeping, and in two countries, I've floated fish for about 20 mins, then opened the bag, allowed a mixing of waters for around 2 minuites max and then poured the fish gently into the tank.

Never, ever had a problem.

These whole shipment wipe outs are totally characteristic of what I've heard happening to many people with this species. It is transport/packaging related.

My supplier's first shipment all died. They came from the Czech Republic.
Next time around, the Czech supplier rested the fish after import. They were then shipped via Montreal where they were re-packaged, re-oxygenated, and all arrived perfect in Toronto.

It is just this delicacy that keeps many suppliers from repeating orders for these fish and other species like Homaloptera orthogoniata for instance. High sensitivity to the stresses of transport mean high losses if all the gods aren't smiling on the fish. An airport delay for instance can tip the balance.

It also gets reflected in the high prices compared to other Hillstreams. Low packing levels means higher freight per fish compared with a higher density packing of something like Neon Tetras for instance. Plus of course the wholesale price per fish is higher anyway....maybe because the wholesale importer is doing a CYA move to cover losses before fish get to him in the first place.

Don't give up on the idea chris, because once you get to keep these beautiful fish succesfully, you'll feel the angst was worth it.

Martin.