sick fish =( possibly velvet?

[azrael181]

I've had 2 clown loaches for 10 days now. Starting today the smaller of the two has been hiding, breathing very rapidly, very red gills and fins, red around the eyes, white mouth, and has discolorations. Click on the pic to get an idea of what I mean.

Could this be velvet maybe? The discolorations don't look like spots though.

This is a new tank, I changed about 25% of the water 2 days ago. I don't have a water testing kit, but have been using a water conditioner and Cycle to treat the water.

Please help! Thanks =)

[adampetherick]

Are the clowns the very first fish to go in this tank? Has it been cycled already?

[mikev]

Are the clowns the very first fish to go in this tank? Has it been cycled already?

Most likely no. "Cycle" is probably the single worst product on the market, it does not seem to do anything, even speed up fishless cycling. Since the poster admits that he/she does not own a "water testing kit", he/she would not know the answer, but it is reasonable to assume that the tank is full of ammonia and the fish is doomed. If the tank has been running for 10 days only, he probably would not have the nitrites -- yet.

azrael181 -- the best thing you can do is to obtain a water testing kit -- specifically, tests for ammonia and nitrites -- and run the tests in the morning. If you see non-zero readings for ammonia OR nitrites, return the fish to the store asap. *Maybe* the store can save them. Then, try to read and learn a little, before endangering more fish.

hth

[azrael181]

Are the clowns the very first fish to go in this tank? Has it been cycled already?

Most likely no.

Mikev and adampetherick, the tank ran for about a week with nothing but water and plants, then the 2 clowns were introduced. I'll test the water tommorow, if this is an ammonia/nitrate problem, what do you suggest to lower these?
Thanks for the advice, I'm not 'endangering' these fish on purpose, and I have been reading and learning. Everyone makes mistakes at some point, if not there would be no need for forums like these. But I am trying to help my loaches, so thank you again =)

[mikev]

Mikev and adampetherick, the tank ran for about a week with nothing but water and plants, then the 2 clowns were introduced.

Yeap, exactly what you should have not been doing.

---

While there are ways to lower ammonia and nitrites, the chances are that you will not be able to do it and keep the fish alive.

The best hope for your fish is to be returned to the store until your tank is operational.

When you returned the fish and no longer endanger their lives, read about cycling and have your tank properly cycled, this will take at least another week (the exact time varies).

Even when your tank is properly cycled, clown loaches must not be the first fish introduced to the tank.

---

One good thing you can do now: increase the airation. Lower the water level if you have a HOB filter. This increases the chances of your fish surviving until you can return them.

[azrael181]

Would high ammonia levels cause the discolorations I'm seeing though? They are hard to see from the picture, but it's almost like a film/patch.
Thanks again.

[adampetherick]

Yeah, the ammonia BURNS through a fishes skin

[adampetherick]

Are the clowns the very first fish to go in this tank? Has it been cycled already?

Most likely no.

Mikev and adampetherick, the tank ran for about a week with nothing but water and plants, then the 2 clowns were introduced. I'll test the water tommorow, if this is an ammonia/nitrate problem, what do you suggest to lower these?
Thanks for the advice, I'm not 'endangering' these fish on purpose, and I have been reading and learning. Everyone makes mistakes at some point, if not there would be no need for forums like these. But I am trying to help my loaches, so thank you again =)

In future it would be best to research before buying a fish, I'd made 10 or so posts on here before I even got a tank.

Do a google search for Fishless cycling. You don't want to be adding any fish for a while, it takes about a month to cycle a new tank.

And I learnt the hard way about adding clowns to early to a tank, and that was one that was cycled

[mikev]

Would high ammonia levels cause the discolorations I'm seeing though? They are hard to see from the picture, but it's almost like a film/patch.
Thanks again.

You welcome.

Ammonia is a poison that may kill outright, or -- as in your case -- first weakens the fish so it cannot resist infections. Ich is very common at this stage, velvet is possible, bacterial infections are possible. Hard to say exactly what your patch is, could be the slime coat disintegrating.

I, or anyone else, cannot give you the exact diagnosis: this is where your water readings would have been helpful. The overall picture, however, is clear.

The exact symptoms are mostly not important: the first thing to do is to get your fish into a functional tank that is not full of poison, then worry about the diseases. One important symptom is the rapid breathing: this indicates that the problem is already very severe.

[azrael181]

Ok, now you're just being RUDE. I came here looking for advice, and while you gave it, you didn't have to be so condescending about it. This is a place where people come for Help, not to be ragged on for being a fish torturer.

[shari2]

If you don't/can't take them back:

1. Lower the water level to permit lots of splashing, or add an airstone.
2. Buy some Ammo loc, or another product that will bind ammonia.
3. Read THIS
4. Do small water changes daily or every other day until your water test kits show NO nitrItes.

And hope your clown makes it. Loaches are quite sensitive to water quality and should NOT be used to cycle a tank. However, that is what you are currently doing. Read that link in #3. Then do the best you can, and let us know how it goes.

The 'discolorations' in your pic may or may not be oodinium. I wouldn't jump to trying to treat for that just yet. Get your tank cycled FIRST. DON't add any other fish until you have completed that process, and see if the fish that are in the tank already make it.

Did your Local Fish Store (lfs) tell you it would be ok to put clowns in a new tank? If so, shame on them. What size is the tank, and what else did you put in it? what is the temp? Can you go get some testers? At least the cheapo test strips that will tell you ammonia levels?

And azrael181--no one here meant to be rude. We are here because we have a significant interest in fish. Loaches in particular. We know that you likely got bad information and now are here looking for help. It is frustrating in the extreme when we run into the same scenario over and over again. LFS gives new fishkeeper the ok to bring home loach to new, uncycled tank. New fishkeeper discovers his fish are having problems. LFS says, 'sorry, we don't take back fish'. New fishkeeper finds forum and hopes to get a magic solution to his/her problem.

Unfortunately, there isn't a good replacement for doing your investigating before you buy. But the lfs won't tell you that. Most of the time they just want to sell you fish. Besides, if your fish die, then what do you do? You go back and buy more fish...
hth....

[shari2]

And one other thing.

This forum is not solely for the purpose of helping new clown keepers keep their fish alive. We have an active interest in ALL things aquatic, especially as they relate to loaches. Both Cobitidae and Balitoridae, as well as the Chromobotia Macracanthus that you currently have two of in your tank.

HERE is a link to the new species index update on your fish. This is for your information and not intended to be rude in any way, shape or form. Most people who go to the expense and take the time to set up any fish tank are interested in learning about the fish they keep. This is one of the best places to learn about loaches.

Hope you can get through the cycling process and will have many more years as a successful fishkeeper.

[azrael181]

Thank you shari2, I'm going to be following everyone's advice, if I can't save the loaches then I will get my tank properly cycled before trying again.

The fishstore (a small local one) did not give advice about what to do with new tanks. When I asked what I should feed the clowns, he wasn't even sure himself! My other alternative was a Petcetra, but they seemed just as clueless about fish care, and even had a number of dead fishes floatng in their tanks, so no help there.

Tank = 20 gal, Temp is 79-80, Just gravel and some plants. I will get the testing supplies I need tomorrow, and start getting things fixed. And yes, the fishstore would have no interest in taking my 'sick' fish back, I will simply have to do more reading on my own I think.

Thanks everyone =)

[angelfish83]

Well, it looks like a case of a well intentioned person getting advice from turnips with legs.

I'd suggest if your town is that bad for fish, go somewhere else for them. It might be a bit of a pain to drive out to wherever... but its worth getting proper advice. The best thing is to find a local fish club. Googling "fish clubs (Your city/state here)" will do it. 3 minutes. The people @ the fish club no doubt will have a forum like this one and will direct you to reputable REAL fish shops in your general area. Works every time.

On a side note- if loaches are what you plan on getting into that 20 Gallon won't do it for you. You'll want a bigger tank, alternately, you'll be stuck with much smaller bottom feeders of different species.

20 is a good starter size though. Just remember there won't likely be loaches in it.

[TammyLiz]

20 is a good starter size though. Just remember there won't likely be loaches in it.

Azrael181--Recently there has been a lot of discussion on this forum about appropriate tank size. While there are slight variations in opinions, they don't vary enough to allow a clown in a 20.

Clown loaches should definitely not be in a 20 gallon, nor should any botiine loaches, but there are a couple of others that could be OK with the proper precautions. Still, maybe not the best for a beginner setup.

Here is a link to my thread about setting up my 20 gallon tank:

http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=3046

As you can see its not the ideal size and I will probably upgrade it in the future. I still wouldn't say its a good beginner setup if you've never kept fish before. Despite my newness to hillstream loaches I've been keeping fish for 10 years and made most of my mistakes with less valuable specimens.

I'm sorry you felt like you were getting snubbed at the beginning. But as shari said, this is something that pops up all the time and the "this is the way it is, period" way of sharing information it not impatience with you, but with the distributors and petstores for selling without educating. You have been given accurate information and I'm sorry to say your clown will probably not survive since you can't give it back to the petstore.

Maybe a good option for you if you're looking for bottom feeders in a community would be to get some cories. They will even breed in good conditions, and 20 gallons is a good size for most of them. They are not loaches, but are likely to be just as fun.