Loaches Online Forum

Hello everyone!
It's me again, and my weekly interview for whoevers willing to answer.
I last left off my adventure preparing my tank and looking into Kuhlis.
I contacted Frank, but he said he doesn't ship outside the US due to how high the costs were for shipping.
So, I've gone into Kuhli's. ^_^ Sadly, I only have one right now- I know that's terrible, but he's much better off in my tank than the over-crowded, dirty one at the pet store. He's become great friends with one of my Dojos, Indie J. (I called her that after her great tank explosion adventure/survival ) There's some Serpaes in my tank, peaceful but they tried chasing my little kuhli when it was first introduced.
It was hilarious to watch Indie J shoot up and fake landing on them to get them away from the Kuhli. They haven't pestered it since, and the Kuhli and Indie are always chasing each other or chilling in the cave in my tank. I've also found Indie J on my thermometer, with my Kuhli on her BACK! It was very sweet.
Anyway, sorry for rambling there! I again have a couple questions I'd like to ask about my loaches & maintenance.
I know that one kuhli is a sin- the pet store is expecting a shipment of them in any day now. Any suggestions about the amount I should pick up?
Also, I regularly remove any excess waste like leftover food from my tank, but how often do you suggest I do a 20-25% water change? Is it weekly, or bi-weekly?
Thanks all!

You know, a lot of people here think you're doing a lot of things wrong (just chatting amongst ourselves) I have no qualms with you at all personally I understand being new at something is very hard to be.

We've told you several times though that you can't house warm/coldwater fish together like that though. The Kuhli loach and serpae would be warmer water fish whereas weather loaches would not. Also, weather loaches get quite large and a 4 foot tank is ideal... if not more.

You really can't get away with this. You will be hurting your fish by keeping them too warm or too cold or finding a 'medium' temperature which is in the middle for everyone. You can do this with some fish and get away with it. None of the fish you have are those fish.

Perhaps this hasnt been explained to you in a way you'll understand. So I have some examples:

Humans, even just within our species, have huge differences in requirements. Lets compare someone who's family has lived 10 generations in Scottland, and someone 10 generations from Zaire.

The white fellow is very very white, and very pale. His nostrils are rather small to conserve heat and moisture, his skin doesn't need to waste energy being dark brown (producing melanin) because he is not exposed to much sun and heat. He has fat distribution that better helps him cope with cool or cold environments. He does well in his environment.

The black fellow is a very dark brown. His nostrils are several times larger than the white fellow in order to exchange a larger amount of air at a time, dissipate heat, and dissipate moisture to help him cool himself. His skin has huge amounts of melanin to protect him from very long periods of sun exposure and extreme heat. He has very thick curly hair to protect his head, the most exposed area, from the sun, and overheating. He has minimal fat distribution and is genetically much leaner to stay cooler. He conserves water better and has better stamina for moving over long stretches of hot terrain.

Lets swap them for a minute.

The black man is living in scottland. His dark pigment is useless to him now. His nostrils are too large and are reducing his ability to stay warm, even with his jacket on. He is uncomfortable in the cool/cold climate because his body was simply not designed for it. He has high stamina but it really doesn't suit him in this environment because he doesn't need to traverse long distances on foot anymore. He can adapt to his new colder climate, but he won't enjoy it.

If, however, we take the white man, and put him on the equator in Africa, we've got a serious problem. He can't produce much melanin and is susceptible to overheating, sunstroke, skincancer, etc.

His nostrils are far too small to exchange the large amount of air needed as the air is very much less dense and very hot here. His small nostrils also reduce his ability to dissipate heat.

He has fine, fair or brown hair, which does not protect his very white scalp from sun or heat.

He has much lower stamina, and much lower water efficiency, and there is perhaps a 50% chance that he will successfully adapt to a permanent life in the african bush without succumbing to dehydration, sunstroke, etc.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Animals are adapted to their environment. Inuit have some of the thinnest eye slits of any of the worlds people- evolved to be able to see across blinding glare on snow and ice without going blind or getting eye damage.
All animals adapt. But not right away. You dont have ten thousand years to let your weather loaches evolve into warm water fish, so you have to stick to what nature gave you.

The Knight Gobie has a cloudy covering over its eyes to live in shallow water with no cover and direct sunlight shining into its eyes. This would blind most fish- but the Knight Gobie has evolved a mechanism to cope with this. No mechanism, the fish goes blind.


You don't put an animal in an environment it was not designed for. SOME animals adapt. Most don't.

get it?

Thank you very much for your quick but thorough reply, I completely understand where you're coming from now.
But I feel very idiotic and guilty- mainly for taking a pet shop workers opinion seriously. -_-
He stated that he'd been caring for them for at least 11 years, and kept the Kuhlis and weather loaches in the same tank together at the store.
He insisted they could live together. Many did mention that kuhli's and dojos were incompatible. Seeing as how the shop owner (not worker, owner) insisted he kept them together for years, I came to the conclusion that it was the idea that the loaches weren't good tank mates (as in they didn't get along).
I feel very stupid for ever buying into it, but I assure you that it will be no trouble for me to relocate my dojo loach to a safe, cooler & larger tank in the morning. I do have my 20, my 10 and a small 5 gallon, but my friend Byron I mentioned before (he used to care for Bala sharks) has a 55 he's often shared the space of with me. No balas in there now. Only Pictus catfish and a few dojos.
I'm very disappointed in how I've been doing so far, it seems I'm not off to a very good start, am I. But I assure you, I really do have my fishes best interests in thought.

As for the discussions going on throughout the board, this disturbs me slightly. If anyone on here is finding I'm going about things wrong, how come they've offered no posts saying 'hey, I think you're doing this and this wrong, and you should go about things this way.' I am new to this and can't find things out any other way then either being told how to go about it, or finding out the hard way. Talking amongst yourselves is not only something I find rude, but in no way beneficial to myself or my fish that you fear are in danger.
Sorry if I'm coming off hostile, it isn't my intent.
I just find it disheartening that if anyone is finding I'm doing anything harmful to or for my fish, they murmur it to each other and not to who needs to hear it most, and that's me.
It's sort of like a bunch of people standing around & watching a fist fight- either someone loses in it, or someone offers a solution.
Please, if anyone possesses valuable to offer me, (sort of like the post I just got above) I'd really appreciate it being told to me- the only thing I can take offense to is silence.
Thanks for letting me know angelfish83, I'll move Indie to the 55 tomorrow, and hopefully from there on in I can move forward in what I'm doing. I hope the move is appreciated, and improves her lifestyle. There are many hiding places in my 20 and Byron's 55.
Are there any answers to the questions I asked in the first post?
And my Kuhli is fine with the Serpae, am I correct? I heard they are fin nippers, but being in a small group of 6 I haven't seen them act on this title- only when they were first introduced to my rainbow. One of them tried to take a nip at him and my rainbow put him in his place. There's been no conflict since. Opinions?

Serpaes are very unlikely to bother your kuhlis especially if your tank is set up properly with lots of cover. You really ought to have sand for kuhlis by the way. Not 100% crucial though.

They are fin nippers yes. You will have to be careful of other fish choices. Again, the Kuhli loaches ideally need to be in a big group.. If you're housing Kuhlis and Serpaes your temperature should be around 80F or so.

As per people talking amongst themselves, fish advice tends to be given in a very hands off gentle manner most of the time which some people interperet as cryptic whereas blunt straightforward responses are interpereted as rude. I don't think you'd picked up on the stuff you'd been told five times in a row. Not your fault. I'm just saying.

You'll want to add more Kuhli loaches. As per the Serpae Tetras, if you want to keep those, you might as well up the group to ten or so and go with seven Kuhlis and make that the whole shabang in a 20G... Even that's a little tight but if you keep up water changes you're ok (it is a 20 LONG right?)

There is no correct water change frequency. You want to change your water often enough to maintain trace elements, maintain nitrates below a certain level, keep your organics reasonable, keep your KH within a certain range, keep your KH within a certain range, etc.

Some people change water daily or twice daily with a huge packed tank or super fragile fish.

Others change their water every 10 days with 2 medium fish in a huge tank.

Both people could have the same water quality, different situations.

Another crock while we're at it is the 1" of fish/gallon.

1" of white cloud mountain minnow eats about 1/4 of 1" of neon tetra which eats about 1/8th of 1" of Angelfish which eats 1/4 of 1" of apple snail etc etc etc

There's lots of cover provided for the kuhlis- lots of little and large caves, plants and tunnels for them to seek refuge in. My kuhli has currently claimed a decoration that creates a series of tunnels. As for the sediments on the bottom, I did try to purchase sand for my tank- however the pet store here doesn't even carry aquarium sands. I purchased the tiniest rocks I could manage- roughly 2 millimetres in size. My temperature has been maintained at 79F.
I was initially going for both a larger group of kuhlis and serpaes- the pet store had one kuhli and 6 serpaes left. They will be calling me within this week to let me know when the shipment of either has arrived.
Thank you again for the thorough explanation, I'll be sure to take on that method of water changing- btw yes my tank is 20 long.
I'm hoping to get my kuhli some company any day now- as for Indie J, she's fitting in nicely with her new tankmates in the tank best suited to her environment now.

it does seem very common that pet store owners are very good at giving bad advice, and they can be very convincing! try asking them some technical questions on a subject where you KNOW your facts, and see if they give you good answers or make something up.

Forums like this one is very good for info too. the people on forums like this one can be quite specialised, tather than a store owner who could know something about quite a few different fish, but not in great detail. it can be good to get several people's opionion, rather than just one persons to get good facts.

please understand that lots of people have the same experience you have had, and have beliecved they are doing something right, only to find out afterwards. its good that you feel guilty about doing something wrong - it's that feeling that will make sure you become a much better fish keeper than all those people who just dont care or wont listen to any advice. you do seem to have your fishes best interests at heart, so dont worry too much about getting off to a bad start.

its good to hear you have started to fix the problems you had

keep us informed



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Thank you for the positive post Helen ^_^
I was quite embarassed seeing I actually had done quite an amount of research on the dojo loach before I purchased it- the information I was steadily recieving was that they preferred temps between 74-82 degrees.
Then again, I would trust the opinions here over any other. I've seen the photos the people here have taken personally of their fish and read many posts of how they're taken care of. I knew this would be the best place to ask.
I'm at the 55 now, watching Indie J be a glutton and thrash the bloodworms near the top of the tank. And they say catfish go crazy during feeding time.
I know most about weather loaches- evidently not enough, but I know less about Kuhli's. All I truly know is they take what I deem a regular loach diet- bloodworms, brineshrimp, tubifex, sinking pellets, etc... (Anything else I should look into picking up? Keep in mind, I'm in the maritimes of Canada, there isn't much available to me! )
Their preferred habitat and temp, the basics. Are there any details or comments/bits of advice anyone has to offer on caring for them? angelfish recommended I keep seven of them- am still waiting on that pet shop call. So, any info I should know? I'm all ears!

Be VERY careful if you decide to continue feeding Tubifex worms. I have heard/read so many sad posts that stem from their use, and I'd hate to see your sweet fishies get hurt.

When the new kuhlis arrive, let the fish shop keep them at least a couple of weeks before you buy any. These little guys are famous for not travelling well. Their bags are often over-crowded and they are susceptible to ammonia buildup. You want to take home fish that have recovered from their first ordeal.

You should also set up a small quarantine tank, so that no new fish automatically go into your community tank. The fish and the water from the fish shop may be contaminated, and really, it's totally worth the effort to avoid having to medicate your tank for any reason.

The diet sounds about right. Feed lightly. Provide lots of shelters for the kuhlis - bits of wood, plants, etc... And also appreciate that once they are established, kuhlis can live for years and years.

Where are you in the maritimes? Could you get to Halifax or even Moncton to buy fish supplies?

Hello, thanks for letting me know. You've heard many bad things? Uh oh! How can it harm the fish?
They can be easily trimmed from the diet- the tank favorites in both cases are the sinking pellets and bloodworms

Hey, there's a whole lot going on in this thread I haven't been involved because I've been busy, but I'll jump in now.

One thing I've been doing is working on the new site that will eventually replace the existing Loaches Online. I've been moving the new Species Profiles over, uploading photos, modifying and moving articles from the old site. Busy, busy.

One thing I just finished is this:

http://community.loaches.com/species-in ... licaudatus

As regards Tubifex worms, if I read between the lines you're probably feeding freeze-dried yes? That's not a problem The problem comes from live Tubifex. They live in the disgusting yucky mud at the edge of rivers and can harbour all sorts of potential nasties. Freeze-dried worms are irradiated and the freeze-drying process kills anything harmful.
I can't help thinking for a hungry Weather Loach it's a bit like eating Ryvita dry is for us

Your Serpae tetras chased the kuhli because that's the sort of thing they do. They are notorious fin-nippers. It's best when introducing new fish to a tank containing inquisitive fish like them to pop in some food before introducing new inhabitants. It keeps their minds on other things.

If a 55 is the largest tank you have available, then 7 Dojos is way too much in my opinion. They'll outgrow it reasonably rapidly.

If anyone was worried about you and your fish I think it might be that your boundless enthusiasm was viewed as potentially a threat to the well-being of your fish's best needs. It appears that was misinterpreted, when it actually seems you have a boundless enthusiasm for gaining knowledge, and that's no bad thing at all

Listen and learn. You're in the right place here if you want to keep Loaches successfully.

Martin.

Hey Mark, thanks for the tip on buying the Kuhlis- that's a very great idea. I heard that Kuhlis were sensitive to travel and changes in temp/water. A quarantine tank, eh? Hmmm... I do have a 5 gallon, that houses a betta... the ten gallon I guess is my best bet. Nothing is in it but a few guppies right now- results of a breeding spree
As for going to Halifax, I'm afraid I'm in Newfoundland- that's a plane ticket or a ferry ride away. I'd love to go only I'm in Uni doing art, and don't have the time off to go on a trip.

Hey Martin, thank you for the link on weather loaches Very informative! Yes, the tubifex are frozen- can't imagine putting live wigglers in the tank. I'm sure that would start an uproar of curiosity!

The Serpaes are definitely curious fish. They haven't attempted a fin nip since the first time they tried it out on my rainbow shark- now they keep to themselves with their rough games. Rarely when the kuhli loach is out and about will they follow it- and they haven't gone further than observation. Thanks for the tip on feeding them while introducing new fish- that would definitely keep those guys busy forever.

Sorry for the mixed messages, it is 7 kuhlis I intend to purchase, not Dojos. I only own one dojo, who shares the 55 with 2 other dojos. I had two, but one of my dojos died in the tank explosion incident.

Yes, I do have incredible enthusiasm for it- I've always been in love with fish and specifically loaches. I'm glad you see that my enthusiasm isn't simply to own and look but to care and learn.

I got mixed up because of not being in this thread earlier

7 kuhlis would be excellent.

So you must be at MUN then? .....and St John's is light on good fish places eh?

Martin.

are there no mail order companies in Canada that you can buy food from? i buy a fair bit of food from the internet, as the shops near me tend to stock rubbish that my fish dont like.

have you read the info here on kuhlies?

http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=2877

by the way, i hope you are enjoying your studies. it must be quite hard to find time to study and look after fish, but it must be very nice. fish are relaxing to watch. if i had had fish at college, i would have got no work done

Well glad that's settled ^_^ 7 Kuhlis it is! I'm excited to see how my poor lone Kuhli will react- that guy has been alone in the store for some time! Tried to get him at least one more companion but alas my searches came up with naught. Poor guy He's very active and explorative, he really enjoys a bonzai-like tree decoration I have in my tank, and the shrimp brine.
Why yes I am at MUN! I decided to go with the branch in Corner Brook though- the campus in St Johns is sort of academically oriented, whereas the campus here in Corner Brook is for art students mostly. The plus side about being taught art here at Grenfell is that you get taught by people who are actually in the art business, and can help you get a career going once you graduate.
Though when it comes to fish, I sometimes wish I was in St. Johns! They have a much broader selection out there. There is only one pet store in CB- there are at least three in St Johns.
So every week my teachers get to see new variations of my fish and different species of them as well The weather loaches are especially fun to draw in their hilarious poses all over the tank. I just realised the loaches on the website are drawn by you, Martin. Are you an artist? [Or just VERY good at knowing the details of a loach? ]
Corner Brook is good for loaches, the temperatures around here are very slow changing- odd for Newfoundland. I always keep my room a teensy bit cooler than my tank. A heater in a tank can always warm up water, but I'm not always there to cool it down. I can bear a bit of nippishness for my fishes! The water quality has a high chlorine amount -_- I treat my water heavily before using it.
There are mail order companies here in Canada! Trouble is I don't know my address. I live in res- and also am limited as to what I can recieve without security having a peek. X_X My mailbox is the size of a toenail- but that's a great idea! I don't mind security peering at my fish food. They let me into res with my 20 gallon (the limit here is 5 My RA comes in to watch my loaches all the time!) I doubt they'll mind a fish food shipment.
Hmm! I'd seen the write up on the loach webpage, but not this link! Thank you
As for my studies, I've never enjoyed doing any type of schoolwork so much in my life. I always catching myself saying 'Oh, I should be doing homework right now.' And then I realise that's exactly what I'm doing! Lucky to have that mentality here in Uni, it's not easy to keep up with a workload you don't enjoy I'm guessing. My fish are mangling what I put in the tank before it hits the bottom! Especially the bloodworms- every other fish is competing with loaches if they want a sniff of those critters.
It is difficult to balance work with play, but I found a neat medium. I do my drawing & viewing studies on my fish, that way I can watch them for hours in the day (as if I wouldn't anyway!) and really get to see what they get up to. I also get hours between classes, seeing most of my courses are three hour studio courses.
Wow, this was a rather large post