Loaches Online Forum

Hi Brenda,
I moved your thread into a new post so more people may notice.
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bevans

Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 2
Location: Versailles, Kentucky

New postPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:11 am Post subject: Creating Kuhlii paradise

Relative newbie here. How big a footprint do kuhlii loaches need? They don't seem to get as big as some of these other sorts of loaches. I was thinking about getting a 20L tank and planting it with nice sand and wood or rock hidey holes for my kuhliis, but would it even be big enough for say 5-6 of them if there weren't other fish? And is it better to get long tanks for them? I have learned from my other fish tank that I need sand rather than gravel, and this would be my first try at an actual planted tank. Given that they are stream fish, is there some sort of filtration that is better for them than others? Should I get some sort of power head to give the water more movement? How long would you give the tank to establish itself before introducing them? In short, what would you do to make a kuhlii loach paradise?
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Brenda

I would not keep them in less than a 30 gallon tank, not litres. They need room, and they are highly social with their own kind. They will swim into the water column at times.

I don't think they require extreme filtration, but a powerhead wouldn't hurt. I keep mine in a densely planted tank with lots of wood to hide under and a sandy substrate. P. myersi spend a lot of time combing around for food bits and P. anguillaris burrow frequently.

30 litres is too small, IMO.

does anyone think an extra deep substrate be appreciated by them, maybe even with void areas in it for them to hide in(buried pipe sections). You may not see them much, but Kuhli paradise might not be the same as Kuhli veiwing parradise

I tried some half buried pvc for my brook tank, and I ended up unhappy with the look of it. I don't think a paradise for loaches should involve a lot of plastic - at least if you have the alternative of using stacked round/flat stones, bog wood, or other more organic materials. For kuhlis, grass-like plants, large flat bits of wood, and even leaves might be preferable. They certainly like mucking about where they feel safe.

Mark in Vancouver wrote:For kuhlis, grass-like plants, large flat bits of wood, and even leaves might be preferable.

Most certainly the case here. PVC tubes are almost always ignored when there is something better around. Semi-closed areas under driftwood are particularly liked.

I've been toying with the idea of PVC coated with sand, inside and out so it looks more like just a natural "cave"...

I'm starting on the rivertank prototype this week, so it should be interesting...


Kevin

Hi Brenda,
I moved your thread into a new post so more people may notice.

Thanks, Shari! You folks certainly did! thanks for all the responses!

Looking over posts in a lot of the forums, several of you have referred to rivertanks or brooktanks. What exactly do you mean by that? Since the kuhlis are stream fish, should I try something like that?

Mark in Vancouver said:

I would not keep them in less than a 30 gallon tank, not litres. They need room, and they are highly social with their own kind. They will swim into the water column at times.

How many can you keep in a tank of that size? I have my four in the 55 gallon at present with a fair number of other fish, and was going to add a fifth one. It may be that it would be better to move some of the livebearers to the 20L if I get it and transform the big tank for the kuhlis. BTB, the reason I seemed fixated on that size is that I currently have a 20/10 gal. stand with a 10 gallon on it and was thinking that it would be nice to put a 20 gal. on top. It won't hold a bigger tank. Must not frighten the hubby, who is a little dismayed that all these tanks seem to be popping up everywhere, though he bought me the 55 for Christmas several years ago and the 29 the year after that.

They need room, and they are highly social with their own kind. They will swim into the water column at times.

If you have a powerhead? Do they like the current? Mine pretty much stay close to the bottom, though occasionally they twine in the mid regions of my plastic plants, scrounging for crumbs. It's been about two weeks since I bought the black kuhlis, and for whatever reason about four days ago, everybody suddenly decided to start coming out. I've seen all four of them at once several times, and there's usually at least one out now almost all the time. They don't seem to care about species-the bigger of the black ones and the striped one tend to hang out together and the smaller black and striped ones do the same.

P. myersi spend a lot of time combing around for food bits and P. anguillaris burrow frequently.

Are there pictures of the different ones here on the site somewhere, or can you point me to some someplace else? Because I got my striped ones in two different places and the striped patterns are different enough that I'm thinking I might have two different species. I haven't seen any of them burrow yet. I've got a pretty fine quartz gravel in the tank, a size one I think they said it was. There was a size zero that was finer, but even that was coarser than the really fine marine sand. I'm wondering if the gravel I currently have is too heavy for them to burrow in and if I shouldn't use the fine marine sand instead. Needless to say, I'm talking about the dry marine sand and not the live stuff.

If playground sand would work for them, I could use that. I just need to know how it needs to be washed, etc..

Awesome Coolstein said:

You may not see them much, but Kuhli paradise might not be the same as Kuhli veiwing parradise

I'll admit to tackiness here. I have a ten-year-old son who likes the fish as well, particularly the kuhlis, and bought a plastic castle ruin for the 55 gal. tank as a decoration. It's not neon or anything, it's grey and green and brown, but it's certainly not a natural brook feature... I got it before I got the kuhlis. It stands up on pillars of pseudo rock so there's an open area underneath it, and it's hollow, with a good-sized opening up into the interior on the underside. We call it the Kuhli Club, because that's where they all lair up. When I had just the one, he stayed in there for weeks on end, and I'd reach in from time to time and try to shake him out, just to make sure he wasn't dead! I was walking by yesterday and was startled to see a little barbeled head poking up through one of the holes drilled in it for air bubbles in one of the towers. If I set up a new tank, I'll do it more tastefully with rocks and such, but they do like the foundered ruins of Numenor very well.

Mark in Vancouver said:

For kuhlis, grass-like plants, large flat bits of wood, and even leaves might be preferable. They certainly like mucking about where they feel safe.

mike v said:

PVC tubes are almost always ignored when there is something better around. Semi-closed areas under driftwood are particularly liked.

I'll keep this in mind. I have some little grass-like plastic plants and they enjoy twining through them. The black kuhlis were in a tank at the store that had a large flat rock in it. I didn't see any when I was walking the tanks, then when I asked the girl, she showed me the tank with the kuhli tag on it and lifted a rock to reveal a seething mass of about twenty of them! Some of them seem to have been able to burrow in that very coarse gravel, but mine haven't since I got them home. I can get presoaked driftwood at the snooty LFS store, but it's pricey. I might stick with just stacked smooth rocks.

here's a link to the species index on the main Loaches On-Line site (you may need to register):
http://www.loaches.com/species-index

Look at the profiles of the Pangio species.

Like this one:
http://www.loaches.com/species-index/pangio-kuhlii

shari2 said:

here's a link to the species index on the main Loaches On-Line site (you may need to register):
http://www.loaches.com/species-index

Thanks, shari! Registered and went and looked.

My black kuhlis do indeed seem to be p. oblonga. The first striped kuhli I bought I'm thinking is actually a p. myersi-the black/brown bars are very thick and go all the way down the body. It was very young and thin when I got it, but a couple of months later it has thickened in the body considerably, which my second striped loach has not done. It's not four inches yet, though I'm thinking it will be growing a while yet. My second striped loach looks like a p. kuhlii, though the markings aren't exactly the same. They do go at least halfway down the body though, as opposed to the p. species that just have little patches on the top. The one that is coming to me on Tuesday is coming from the same place as the first striped loach, so it will probably be a p. myersi too.

Any idea how long it takes the p. myersi to reach full growth? And how long will my wriggly guys live?

IMO you don't need caves for Kuhlis. Caves are just open water as far as they are concerned. What you need is driftwood, rocks, and plants. They will find or excavate their own tunnels and slithery holes under and between all that stuff. In other words a fairly tangled and congested bottom is closest to their habitat. Give them that to retreat to if needed and they will emerge and play games in the open fearlessly.

The Kapenta Kid wrote:In other words a fairly tangled and congested bottom is closest to their habitat. Give them that to retreat to if needed and they will emerge and play games in the open fearlessly.

I'll second this opinion. My kuhlis are in a tank with a simple set-up they appear to enjoy. There's a large tangle of driftwood that takes up the entire middle of the tank and that comes within several inches of the walls of the tank. The top third of the tank is a tangle of floating anacharis, hornwort, and frogbit. This overlaps the driftwood. The substrate is black sand.

They drape themselves on the driftwood and in the plants. They scoot under and through and around the driftwood and sift through the sand. They do laps all the way around the tank in the open two-thirds under the plants. They also like to body surf on the output from the Fluval 3+ (internal filter -- one of several in this tank) that's in one of the corners with its output directed down one of the long sides of the tank right at the surface of the water. This is in addition to their normal corner dances.

Best of all, they spend very little time hidden and are very active. It seems the more places they have to hide, the less they need to do so.

They also have the whole tank to themselves, which I believe makes them more comfortable.

Best of luck with yours,
Lou

The Kapenta Kid wrote:

In other words a fairly tangled and congested bottom is closest to their habitat. Give them that to retreat to if needed and they will emerge and play games in the open fearlessly.

And Istaunt wrote:

I'll second this opinion. My kuhlis are in a tank with a simple set-up they appear to enjoy. There's a large tangle of driftwood that takes up the entire middle of the tank and that comes within several inches of the walls of the tank. The top third of the tank is a tangle of floating anacharis, hornwort, and frogbit. This overlaps the driftwood. The substrate is black sand.

I'm beginning to think that what I need to do instead of making a new tank for the kuhlis is just to make the 55 more kuhli friendly and set up another tank for some of my other fish! It had been my intention to get plant lights for the 55 and plant it. Maybe I should just go ahead and do that and get some rocks and driftwood. I'm still a little confused about whether I should put some sort of internal filter or powerhead in there-there seem to be all sorts of horror stories on the forums about the creative ways loaches can use filters to commit suicide.

Istaunt again:

They drape themselves on the driftwood and in the plants. They scoot under and through and around the driftwood and sift through the sand. They do laps all the way around the tank in the open two-thirds under the plants. They also like to body surf on the output from the Fluval 3+ (internal filter -- one of several in this tank) that's in one of the corners with its output directed down one of the long sides of the tank right at the surface of the water. This is in addition to their normal corner dances.

Best of all, they spend very little time hidden and are very active. It seems the more places they have to hide, the less they need to do so.

Your kuhlis sound like a lot of fun to watch. My tank obviously has too many open spaces still, though my kuhlis strangely like to congregate on the side that doesn't have the most plants. I suppose it makes sense that you'd feel more secure about coming out of hiding if you knew there were hiding places a couple of inches in every direction.

I've just got an regular external Aqua-tech filter and though it has a strong flow, I've never seen them interested in going up there.

Istaunt again:

They also have the whole tank to themselves, which I believe makes them more comfortable.

How big is your tank, and how many of them do you have in it? My livebearers seem to co-exist with them peaceably enough, but if I want to get too many more, I am going to have to move some of the live-bearers elsewhere, I think.

I've been scouring the Web trying to find someone who has albinos for sale, because I had one (the red-eyed albino) when I was a young girl and loved that fish dearly. He/she was the reason I like kuhlis so much. If I ever get an albino kuhli you can bet the guppies, etc., would be packing for a move!

Best of luck with yours,
Lou

Thank you very much! And may yours continue to prosper!

Here's a shot of my kuhli tank when I first set it up. I added a few more kuhlis and moved the log in the back area to another spot and added a mid size rock with openings which they love. They go thru the entry ways, and under it. The java moss has grown to fill almost the entire tank now and they apparently love swimming under and thru it as you can see them actively moving around most of the time.



Several of the kuhlis live in the back area of one log.



The same tank after about a year.



Black kuhlis in another tank. They live in the rear portion of the tank under the rocks. They usually come out when the food does.


A second batch of kuhlis that came in eating.



They remained in a 5 gallon tank for about 6 months and seemed to be quite happy eating well, exploring, and becoming gravid.

Hi, Brenda. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. The pesky work thing and pesky holiday preparation thing kept interfering...

I have 19 kuhlis in a 36"/30 gallon tank. I have a Fluval 3+ internal filter and a large sponge filter in their tank. To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a way for them to get into the Fluval to commit suicide via the impeller, and I certainly hope I'm never proven wrong on that one.

I originally had an Aquaclear HOB, but replaced it with the Fluval after finding one of the kuhlis in the filter under the media basket. I'm sure the look on my face was something to behold as I realized I really was seeing a kuhli swimming around in the tiny space under the media basket. I'm not sure how the kuhli got there, but until I replaced the filter, I mutilated an Aquaclear sponge and stuck it on the intake tube. They're such curious little guys; I kept envisioning them sticking their heads into one of the little slots in the intake tube and -- fwooop! kuhli elevator up. 1st floor: impeller. 2nd floor: media basket. Thankfully, this one chose the floor with the media basket instead of the impeller floor. Very disconcerting all the same. Of course, they were quite small at the time, too. They're so plump now, I'm not sure they'd fit.

The other thing I like about the Fluval 3+ is the current it creates for them. Certainly not the equivalent of a powerhead, but it has a decent, focused flow they like to play in.

I've never seen an albino kuhli. When you find yours, please remember to come back and post pictures.
Lou

Istaunt wrote:

Hi, Brenda. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. The pesky work thing and pesky holiday preparation thing kept interfering...

That's quite all right, Lou-I'm in the same boat myself.

I have 19 kuhlis in a 36"/30 gallon tank. I have a Fluval 3+ internal filter and a large sponge filter in their tank. To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a way for them to get into the Fluval to commit suicide via the impeller, and I certainly hope I'm never proven wrong on that one.

You said they were by themselves, IIRC. My goldfish tank is a 29gal., but it's only 30" long, so do you have some sort of 30 long tank, and if so, where did you get it?

The filter thing is a bit of a mystery to me. The snooty LFS sells all sorts, including some big canister ones, but they are big into reef tanks, etc. I thought about replacing the Aquatech filter on my big tank with a Penguin, but haven't decided. Perhaps a Fluval would be better-people can feel free to chime in about their experiences! I don't remember seeing sponge filters there, but I might not have been looking in the right place.

The two smaller kuhliis seem to acclimating well. The larger of the two is actually out and about quite a bit-ought to call him Fearless. He sat quiet while my big Mollie girl pecked the gravel all around him yesterday. She didn't offer to hurt him. I see the littlest guy some-hope he fattens up soon. He looks like the runt that got pushed away from the trough. I don't think he has skinny though.

The other thing I like about the Fluval 3+ is the current it creates for them. Certainly not the equivalent of a powerhead, but it has a decent, focused flow they like to play in.

I don't have that, and it might be worth getting a different filter just to see if they would play.

I've never seen an albino kuhli. When you find yours, please remember to come back and post pictures.

I was in the eighth grade when I got that fish, and at the time, they were breeding bunches of them-I got him in just a regular pet store and certainly didn't pay a lot of money. So you can imagine my astonishment when I went looking and people said they're incredibly scarce and expensive now! But then, I date from the era of slate-bottomed tanks...

If I do find one (cue in "To Dream the Impossible Dream" here), I'll certainly try to take and post some pictures. Or rather, I'll get hubby to do it-the digital camera is his little toy.