water hardness?

[loachnoob]

Hi all, new to the forum. Long time tank keeper and new the forums.

Never considered my tap water chemistry over the years of fish keeping as its never been as issue, other than the obvious removal of chlorine and chloramine, but I now live in north eastern Indiana and we have some really hard water - harder than most of the country.

If i was trying to keep cichlids, like I have in the past, our water apparently seems more than ideal. Is this a serious issue for keeping botia, or is stability of the GH, plus other parameters, more important? Thinking I could cheaply adjust hardness I bought API water softener pillows, but at 48 hours the perimeters haven't budged and added an unsightly yellow tinge to my previously crystal clear water. As far as I'm concerned they're junk against my water quality. I do a 25-35% water change weekly.

The reason I ask if since having set up the tank a few months ago I've killed quite a few. I've never kept botias - yoyos, angelicus, gold zebras - but I've become fascinated with their behavior and the ones I've brought home seemed healthy and eagerly eat bloodwooms, snails, algae wafers, algae pellets, ect. But I've lost quite few, that go from "seemingly healthy" to laying on their sides and wasting away in a week or two. I've treated for parasites, thinking they had wasting disease but I'm at a loss. Frankly the wife gets mad when I bring another one home, telling me I'm just throwing money away - especially since the other fish are thriving.

Is water water chemistry here just wrong for the species or is something else I'm missing? pH is around 8, nitrates 0, nitrites <20, but the gH is 180ish (non-German scale.) I'm willing to get a water softener, the house could use one anyways - from all the scale we get in the tubs/dishwater removed dishes - but is that really the issue with the botias? The LFS's i've talked to have told me the botias are hardy and it's a non-issue, but as I said I'm really second guessing the importance of this. I can't help but think our LFS have osmosis devices running in the background, and they might not understand the complexity of water chemistry. To the credit of several of the LFS the employees seem above average in intelligence to fish husbandry compared to your typical big box fish stores.

My tanks is heavily planted with crypts - that are thriving (more so than any planted tank I've ever kept! - give them flourish and excel periodically under the recommended dosage levels, 55 gal tank, two aquaclear 50's that I've mitigated the flow of to create less current with baffles since the angels clearly didn't like the installation of the second unit. I have 2 angels, 7 cherry barbs (that have grown exponentially since I first brought them home 3 months ago), 4 glow tetras, 1 giant fan tail goldfish (my sons favorite fish, he eats everything - the fish not my son ), and a few botias (3 yoyos, 2 golden zerbras, 1 angelicus, running around.) Tons of hiding places for the loaches so they don't fight with each other. I'm sick of them randomly dying and willing to try anything to see them grow up; ya know to keep them to adulthood and youtube videos of fat happy loaches make me jealous.

In December I plan on upgrading to a 125 to move over the botias if I can figure this issue out. The rest of the fish can stay in the 55 as far as I'm concerned since really we got the tank for my 4 year old son and the botias just became an obsession for me.

When i set the tank up a few months ago, I admittedly brought home several botias that were not in ideal condition and acknowledge their demise was likley from that. Heavy breathing, erratic behavior, ect. I also realise these fish prefer larger shoals, but there is limited availability here in my area. I stopped at a LFS today in Indianapolis, when I would out for work, that had angelicus, but the rest of the fish in tank had ich +several dead fish, so I obviously passed on bringing home the angelicuses. One thing that stood out though was the the tank had a note on it that said "some of the fish in this tank require reverse osmosis water, and cannot live in typical tap water," which only further reinforced my thought that my hardness is unacceptable.

Any thoughts? Thanks all!

[Loachloach]

I doubt it the issue for the deaths has anything to do with the hardness of your water. I would not add any additives to try soften the water. These are more dangerous than useful.

Have you happened to test all water parameters, such as KH, pH, etc...?

What is your water change schedule and how much do you change?

What was the med you used to treat for parasites?

[loachnoob]

Thanks for the reassurance and reply!

pH is around 8, not sure on carbonate hardness but based off the scale on everything water related in my house im sure its high.

I used API general cure for suspected parasites and followed the directions to the letter. One golden zebra died shortly afterwards after exhibiting severe swelling in his abdominal cavity, upon necropsy i found a BB sized translucent fluid fillled green sac that i didnt recognize ( i have above average knowledge of fish amatomy.)

I do 25-35% water changes religiously and add Seachem Prime to the water prior to putting it in the tank

[Loachloach]

Api General cure contains praziquantel and metronidazole. That treats flat worms, e.g. gill flukes and parasites like hexamita/spironucleus. Neither of these diseases normally cause fish to lay on their sides for a week before dying. Generally worms/parasites are slow killers, over months and even years.
On a side note for future reference I want to mention that this med doesn't treat round worms, which are more common. You'd need either levamisole or flubendazole to treat those.

However, the issue may not at all be parasitic/worm related...If you have a microscope, try taking a swab, would be best for identifying these.

Other than that I'd try a series of large water changes, over a period of 2-8 weeks if you can. By water changes I mean daily, or every other day, 50%. This will rid the tank of any excess pathogen that may have taken hold and also help the immune system of the fish, which is how fish fight diseases. It's the best approach when one doesn't know and also quite successful if one dares to stick to it. Also, a routine weekly minimum 50% is best long term.
.
Good luck with the loaches. They're the best fish

[loachnoob]

Today's water change night, 50% it is

[loachnoob]

Did a 50% water change tonight. First time I've seen he angelicus come out of hiding. You may be right, just need to do higher percentages of water changes.

LFS said he might get some more angelicus in tomorrow, if so I'll bring them home so he has a few friends.

[Diana]

A little more information about water hardness:

GH, General Hardness, is a measure of calcium and magnesium. Some fish are quite particular and need the GH they are used to in the wild. Other fish handle a wide range of GH. Most Loaches can handle a fairly wide range of GH. The concern is if the GH changes rapidly, such as doing a large water change with water with a significantly different GH. Fish cannot handle a large, sudden change in GH.

KH, Carbonate Hardness, is a measure of carbonates. Carbonates act to stabilize the pH. If there are high carbonates in the water the pH will almost always be pretty high. If there are low carbonates in the water then the pH is more likely to be low, but is easy to change.

pH is a measure of the ratio between H+ and OH- in the water. High H+ is low pH. High OH- is high pH. Many things can affect the pH by either adding or removing the H+ or OH-. Carbonates are the most common material in aquariums that raise the pH. Organic matter in the tank is the most common material that lowers the pH. Most fish can tolerate changes in pH as long as it is not accompanied by changing mineral levels (such as rising or sinking carbonates). Most pH adjusters act by adding something to the water to raise or lower the pH. This raises the TDS whether they raise or lower the pH.

TDS, Total Dissolved Solids, is a measure of several things in the water, especially salts and minerals.
Fish live in water with a certain level of TDS. Their body adapts to this level. When the level changes a little at a time they can adapt. When it changes too fast they have a hard time, especially if it goes lower.

If your fish are doing OK in your tap water, and there is no other reason to treat it (such as heavy metals, or other toxins) then the easiest way to handle an aquarium is to do plenty of good sized water changes with the tap water.
If you need to treat the water to remove something other than chlorine or chloramine, then you may need to look into reverse osmosis filtration. Often a system will have a pre-treatment that removes some of the minerals (such as calcium) that is hard on the RO membrane. This primary treatment might be all you need for your aquarium. You might not need to go as far as the actual reverse osmosis treated water.

So, lets say you decide you need to alter the water in the aquarium. Very briefly:
Go slowly. Make large water changes is OK, but make the replacement water almost the same as the water in the tank. Just a little bit softer each time. For example, perhaps 90% tap water + 10% RO for one or two water changes, then 80/20 for several more and so on.
It may take several weeks or a couple of months to fully change the water from hard water with high pH to soft, acidic water.
Then you will have to keep it up. Every water change you do will need the right blend of RO + tap.

I have used the API water softener pillows. Maybe they would work in a small tank, small volume of water, but I was not impressed. However, here is another issue:
Lets say they worked really well, and removed the minerals. You could add the right quantity of pillows so the mineral level went down slowly so the fish could adapt.
But now here comes a water change with a high mineral level. Suddenly the fish are exposed to a significantly higher mineral level. They had become adapted to the lower minerals created by the softener pillows.
This extreme up and down is very hard on the fish. Much better to do water treatments outside of the tank, so the water entering the tank is already correct for the fish.

[Loachloach]

The concern is if the GH changes rapidly, such as doing a large water change with water with a significantly different GH. Fish cannot handle a large, sudden change in GH.

I agree with Diana. However, this is not a concern as long as you're doing water changes with the same source water. In extreme cases one can have an issue if for example they haven't done water changes often enough and big enough for a period of time, and in time the tank and tap water parameters would shift wildly from each other due to the natural pollution that happens in a fish tank..Then a large water change, despite it being with the same water as usual, can have a negative effect on the fish. However, even in extreme situations like this the risk of a bigger water change is less than the risk of leaving the fish living in the old polluted water. There will be a period of transition until one equals tank and tap water parameters but it is to be done for the sake of the fish. Fish absolutely flourish when one keeps the tank water regularly water changed. There isn't a better preventative to diseases than that. Their appetites are better, their colour, their activity level, their long term well being and their life spans are longer. Second to that is high quality food.

Did a 50% water change tonight. First time I've seen he angelicus come out of hiding. You may be right, just need to do higher percentages of water changes.

LFS said he might get some more angelicus in tomorrow, if so I'll bring them home so he has a few friends.

Even more so a reason to up the water changes frequency as this will give your new fish the best chance possible. I always do daily water changes with new fish, and feed them well. In majority of cases fish are kept in sub optimal conditions prior to arriving at one's tank, hence they are weak and need that extra care to get them back in top condition.

I have some pictures of progress of clown loaches I'd like to show.

Below is a loach on the day of the pruchase, or the day after, can't remember. I know he had spent a couple of weeks in the fish shop and prior to that in someone elses tank but the loach is in poor condition, although still healthy enough.



Same loach below 6 months later, after some extra care.



One more recent example below. I bought a visually sick baby loach with the intention of nursing him back to health.

His condition at purchase, it is the pale loach in the centre.


One year later. He's the one in the middle.


The same loach....the one on the left.


My point is, fish are not always healthy when they come to one's tank. If one doesn't take the extra necessary steps, fish like that won't make it, only the healthy ones will. But if you do, the fish will recover. The process of recovery is slow. It is not a week, or two. It takes months....the same as with a very sick human being...

Good luck. I think I tried to make my point clear enough Sorry for the long winded post. Good luck with your loaches.

[loachnoob]

Diane and Loachloach, thank you both so much for taking the time to make your post, I sincerely appreciate it! Obviously you both have far more extensive knowledge about loaches in aquaria than I do.

I now recognize, it takes time to see improvement, not just weeks and I think there-in lies my biggest mistake. I'm expecting to see instant results and positive reactions to what I'm doing. After reading both your post, my best guess is most of the fish I've brought home and been past the point of no return, and as a result, I gauged their negative responses to some "larger" issue going on in the tank.

Again, the tank is only 3-4 months old. An infant by all most standards, and rightfully so. My observations this week were as follows:

My two small zebras actively feed on any food, 2 of the three yoyos do as well - one even tonight was swimming upside gulping down flakes on the surface- a reaction I've never seen it do. They are skinny, but active.

The biggest of the yoyos and the the one lone angelicus I have only venture out for worms. These two are chubby. They pass on shrimp and algae pellets but go ga-ga over worms. Yesterday I brought home some redworms from my office worm farm and they went absolutely ape over them, aside from dealing with the live worms "fighting" back. Snails I drop in at night and nothing more than empty shells the following morning. Who's eating them is unknown to me but these two biggest loaches are fat and colorful. They still hide under normal feeding conditions, poke their heads out from cover from he smell, unless worms are added.

I took out the API water softener pillows that did nothing, I'll pitch them and adsorb the expense (no pun intended ). The other unopened packages are getting returned (plus the recharging salt.)

I'm going to slow down, make sure the fish are happy and keep up with the 50% water change weekly that you recommended.

Sincerely, thank you both so much for taking the time to respond to my concerns with your in depth responses. After reading your comments I can comfortably assume I way over thinking things and probably causing more harm than good. I'll keep you updated on how things develop.

We're still considering the water softener for other reasons, but it's obvious the expense isn't important to our fish keeping success.

Thanks again loach keepers!

[loachnoob]

Loachloach, just looked more closely at that clowns progress. Excellent documentation! Thanks again bud

[loachnoob]

All has been well, until I noticed this tonight during feeding. Can you two give me your feed back under that thread please?

https://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.ph ... 14#p221514

[NancyD]

It does look like ich to me in your link.

Maybe I just skimmed, but were your nitrite or nitrate 20 ppm? Could be a typo or a life threating cycling problem. I'm with Diana & Ll, lots of large water changes (daily if possible) with vacuuming & retreatment as needed. I'd continue treatment for 10-14 day AFTER all signs of ich are gone. Ich is "fairly" easy to treat if caught early & treated religiously, do it!

A "splashy return" is very good when treating for ich but take that lack of water into account when dosing meds.

After this ich issue is resolved you might try a 2x flubendazole treatment as a wormer. Loaches are prone to round worms etc.

Keep us up to date on how they are doing.

[Loachloach]

As Nancy says, it is more than likely a cycling issue or really weak fish from the fish shop. I just want to emphasize again the importance of water changes as they're the only thing that prevents things like this and are also the way to the cure too....though after the fish become diseased some meds maybe required in conjunction to help fish fight the disease. Fingers crossed the fish recover well from the issue. Let us know how they progress.

[NancyD]

Yes, my Ll friend, water changes are ALL good. But with ich, meds are needed & WCs. Don't you think the kubotai looks like it has ich? I do.