The new guy...

[brochtune]

Hi everyone, I'm the new guy...I've been reading a lot from the forum posts over the past few months and have found answers to most of my questions. You've all been a big help and I sincerely thank you.

Right now I have a 33G tank with 5 2.5-3" clown loaches (I know, I know). I came across them because of a snail population and Petsmart recommended the clowns. I got two at first, they rid me of my snails, but were always hiding. I really quite liked them though so I bought a few more after reading that they do best in groups. Needless to say, I'm much more informed now and am searching for a 2nd hand larger tank (min 75G for now).

The reason I'm posting is that I have a question about circulation and how much is too much. I originally had an aquaclear 50 running but have recently added a biowheel 200 so that I would be able to get a good amount of bacteria when I transfer out my other fish to another tank in my kids room without having to cycle. I've also bought a Hagen powerhead 70 and was wondering if it were possible to have too much circulation??? Right now I'm theoretically circulating 400Gph and that would rise with the addition of the powerhead to 800Gph(which I don't think is entirely necessary at this point...) Even still, how much circulation is too much? at 800Gph I'd be circulating close to 25x/hr. I don't want my fish to feel like they're living in a wind tunnel...unless they like that sort of thing...

Anyway, right now I have 5 clowns, 6 zebra danios, 4 neons, 2 gold skirt tetras, 2 black phantoms and a farlowella (twig.)

My plan is to transfer out the tetras and danios to a 20-30G in my kids room with the aquaclear (since it has a slow speed setting) and keep the biowheel with my clowns and farlowella (and maybe add 6 rasboras as dither fish.) I'm also going to take out half of the gravel and put it in the other tank as well as 30% of the water so I was hoping the tanks would basically be mimicking eachother right off the bat, just to get the second one running easily and cycle-less (or cycled). I'm will be going to 100% silica eventually for my clowns anyway so all the gravel will eventually be out of there.

I have great water tests, no ammonia, nitrite, and very little nitrate. I have a lot of plants so that helps too....

Anyway, can anyone see a kink in my plan? the reason I got the powerhead was to try to make the 33G more hospitable to my clowns until I can transition them. Having seen Martin's river tank I thought my clowns deserved a little slice of that heaven...

Thanks for reading, if you made it this far

Even if I no one responds, I appreciate all the help you've all already given everyone else, that has also helped me.

Sincerely,

Thomas Elliott

[brett_fishman]

with any tank, you need atleast a 10x turnover rate, meaning that the tank water should be filtered 10 times per hour, so that in turn means that you must have a filter that pumps 330gph or more

loaches like a strong current (hillstreams enjoy 'extremely strong' currents) so a powerhead on one end of the tank is a must, so that the other occupants can escape the high flow (tetras and twig cat) but the danios appreciate a good flow as well..

the AC 50 (formerly called the 200) pumps 200gph, so thats not really up to par..and your 'bio-wheel 200'..is that 200gph as well?
the hagen ph70 is rated at 400gph (350 with air) so that is plenty good flow..

i think that a turnover of 25x is a TAD much..i think a 20x rate would be good..but im not an expert with 'river tanks' (if this has anything to do with one)

rasboras are exellent fish, may i suggest a school of harlequins? im going to have 8 in my 55 with 6 hatchets as dithers..

i hope that answers some questions,
brett.

[angelfish83]

with any tank, you need atleast a 10x turnover rate

not true.

Ten is overkill on everything. Except perhaps river tanks- but even there this depends on the setup. The rate of turnover has to do with bioload, current, whats in the tank, filtration method, media, contact time.

An Eheim Pro II at 250GPH filters as well as 2 Emperor 400's at 800GPH in terms of its effect on "X" amount of water.

That's why an Aquaclear that's rated for a sixty five gallon tank runs at five hundred gallons per hour, whereas a canister rated for a sixty five gallon may run at about 200 gallons per hour.

Most North American aquarists myself included are paranoid and keep turnover rates rediculous. I have 2 ac 300's and an eheim 2215. That's a theoretical 767GPH on 55G (15X/hour turnover) but in realworld performance its barely 500GPH as aquaclears are rated with no media as are most filters..

Anyways.... Ive totally gone rambling on here...

[brett_fishman]

ahh..alrighty..

but, ahem..the AC 110 (500gph) is rated for 110g. tanks..rediculous i say!! same with the AC 70 (300gph) being rated for 70g. tanks...it just doesnt seem like enough filtering..im going to put 2 AC 70s (600gph total) onto the 55g. that seems fair enough..

i have an AC 'mini' on my 10g. it 'pumps' 100gph, thats a 10x rate, and my tank is no river!

-brett.

EDIT: nevermind my whole post, i just re-read this:

That's why an Aquaclear that's rated for a sixty five gallon tank runs at five hundred gallons per hour, whereas a canister rated for a sixty five gallon may run at about 200 gallons per hour.

[brochtune]

Ten is overkill on everything. Except perhaps river tanks- but even there this depends on the setup. The rate of turnover has to do with bioload, current, whats in the tank, filtration method, media, contact time.

What do you mean by overkill? overkill as in, damaging? or overkill, unnecessary? I don't want to harm my clowns though I do want them to be happier and maybe trick them into thinking they are in a bigger, more natural environment until I can get a bigger tank.

I have 2 ac 300's and an eheim 2215. That's a theoretical 767GPH on 55G (15X/hour turnover) but in realworld performance its barely 500GPH as aquaclears are rated with no media as are most filters..

Well, my AC50 must have been doing a decent job by itself this whole time since my numbers were good, right? Though they're rated the same, the penguin 200 clearly filters more Gph compared to AC50, they're sitting side by side. If I install the Hagen powerhead 70, that gives me a theoretical 600Gph(with only one of the filters), which is about 18x turnover... too much? too little? I'm a little confused now since you're saying the reported Gph aren't real world.

Thanks for the responses

[brett_fishman]

we're talking about filtering turnover gph, not pumping gph

like, your powerhead doesnt filter (unless you have a quickfilter on it) so that doesnt count, its just there for extra flow, which is OPTIONAL

but the filter(s) are essential...i always heard that you should have atleast a 10x turnover rate (filtering) so that the water stays clean..but that may be wrong, i dont know..i think its just a good rule-of-thumb..

and what angelfish is trying to say, is that when you put media (sponges, carbon, bio-max, etc..) into your filter, it blocks the water flow, therefor lowering your gph, and like he says, they test the gph of the filter with no media in it..so the 'suggested gph' is just the maximum, and that your actual gph is alot less due to the media..

-brett.

[worldrallynut]

My turnover rates:

55 gal: AC 110 (500gph), eheim 2213 (116gph), MJ 900 (230gph)
turnover rate: 15.4
total tank size filters rated for: 165gal

30 gal: Whisper 40 (210gph), AC 30 (150gph), MJ 600 (160gph)
turnover rate: 17.3
total tank size filters rated for: 70gal

130 gal: 2x Eheim ProII (250gph each), MJ 1200 (295gph)
turnover rate: 6.1
total tank size filters rated for: 184

I favor over-filtration over not having enough. However not all fish require as much flow as others. The clown loaches will need a much larger tank eventually and will appreciate plenty of flow. Keep in mind that where the flow occurs also plays a key role. Since oxygen exchange occurs at the surface, the more surface agitation, the better (you still want to provide some flow in all parts of the tank).

I always over filter my tanks, or at least well beyond what the manufacturers claim they are rated for as the ratings seem awfullly optomistic.

[brochtune]

I see. it didn't click that you were talking about filtered Gph. Thanks for clarifying.

So if I kept my penguin 200 and installed the H. powerhead 70 will my clowns (and others) be more stressed or happier because of the excess current? I guess I'm also worried about my farlowella since their habitat is more still water. My clowns and farlowella are quite a bad match actually...bright lights vs dimmer lighting, faster water vs not as fast, clowns can go to higher temps while the farlow tops at 80 or so....last time I listen to the dude at the fishstore before researching...

thanks,
Thomas

[brett_fishman]

all loaches love lots current
(some love it more than others *cough* hillstreams *cough*)

your clowns will love it in there, dont worry!!

just make sure you choose other, current-loving fish as tank mates, they'll appreciate it!!

what do you mean about the clowns vs. the farlowella? they both prefer subdued lighting, just that the current preferences differ..but neither like bright lighting..

-brett.

[brochtune]

I read here that they do like the bright lights....
http://fish.mongabay.com/species/Farlowella_acus.html

however, I have to say that I have found different looking fish for the farlowella acus...which, according to the pictures, they match mine.

some websites contradict on many different things, I've found, in regards to certian fish

thomas

[brett_fishman]

hmm..i know that most catfish/plecos/loaches seem to prefer subdued lighting and they dislike being under bright lighting...

and the site says this:

There are 60 described Farlowella species and correct identification is difficult.

of these 60 species, lighting/current preferences probably differ

-brett.

[brochtune]

yeah, I really like my farlow and I wish I could be sure. I want to keep my fish happy!

Thanks for all of the input. You guys are great and know a ton!

regards,
Thomas

[Martin Thoene]

Re: Farlowella and current..........

http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... cle_id=246

Current may be an advantage. Most Loricarids are shaped that way for the self-same reasons that Hillstream Loaches are shaped the way they are.

10 x per hour filtration is not excessive. One must not confuse turnover with the current it creates. Too much current can be a problem with certain fish species, but others live in high flow in nature so will love it in an aquarium.

As stated, North American equipment tends to be designed on the "no substitute for cubic inches" mantra as applied to cars. European filters, such as Eheims are generally of lower flow for a given capacity. They work on allowing longer dwell time of the water for a (possibly) greater biological filtration effect.

I would hazard a guess that this is because of the higher proportion of aquaria that were focussed on plant growth in Europe as compared to most of the rest of the World. The teachings of Amano have changed that to an extent, but it is possible to have CO2 injected tanks combined with good water flow and filtration.

My Clowns used to be in the 120. It had CO2 injection, plus a lot of surface movement provided by spraybars under the surface. It was a jungle in there and the fish were perfectly happy.

Balancing lighting between the fish's preferences and what the plants require is difficult. My 125 is a mass of Microsoreum pterops (Windelov) and Cryptocoryne aponogeton (I think). I hardly ever have the lights on because the Clowns hide if I do. The histrionica however are unphased by the lights and always out and about.

I would keep the Danios in the tank, but move the Tetras. Zebra Danios will enjoy the current.

Martin.

[brochtune]

That was a great article. If his farlowellas were able to spawn in a river tank, I think mine will be okay. Even still, I'll keep an eye on him.

Also, I was thinking the same thing about the danios, thanks for solidifying it for me.

Thanks for the post, Martin, it was a big help.

Thomas