New River-Tank Project.

[Martin Thoene]

I mentioned the other day that I got a quote for a custom built tank as a basis for this idea that I have for two linked River-Tanks. Well here's the concept design. The dimensions are not defined yet. The pump chambers may look proportionally smaller than this diagram.



Right first thing is to make it clear what you are looking at. Each tank is 6 feet long by 18" by 18". They feature a raised floor supported on longitudal glass braces about 1" high (not shown). Water can flow under the floor of the fish part of the tank completely doing away with my tubular design manifold. At the end of the false floor is a 2" glass wall to retain the substrate.

Let's start to explain how this all works. Tank B is effectively a sump for tank A. The pump C will be something like a Rainbow Lifeguard Quiet One 6000 that pumps 1506 gph. It pumps water up to tank A via solid piping. This pipe enters tank A inside a separate pump chamber. There is a hole in the pipe ( J )that will act as a syphon break should power fail or the pump stop working.

There is a pump D mounted on a polycarbonate wall (red in picture) that continues up from the short glass substrate retaing wall on the right-hand end of the false floor. Pump D will probably be a Seio 2600. Polycarbonate is needed because I need to machine a precisely shaped aperture in the wall to allow the pump's odd shaped water distribution outlet to blow through the wall. At 2600 gph, these pumps pose a serious danger to small fish with their intake pull, so I want to seperate the pump from the fish. I don't know yet exactly how the pump will be mounted to the wall.

Water flows through the tank in a far more spread pattern with this design pump. At the left end there is again a polycarbonate end wall continuing up from the glass substrate retainer. I propose this will be two sheets of plastic, each with a large aperture cut in them. Sandwiched between them will be plastic mesh. Possibly screen door mesh or plastic tapestry mesh. Most of the end wall will be mesh allowing very little water restriction. Water flows through the wall and flows over a weir which determines the tank's water level. It flows into chamber F containing probably bioballs supported by plastic egg-crate.

Two large bore bulkhead fittings fitted in holes drilled during manufacture dump overflow water via flexible pipe G into tank B. Flow rate is whatever pump C is rated at. The Seio pump has no effect and merely creates strong one-way current.

The water dumps into chamber H filled with a ceramic media supported on plastic egg-crate. A drilling at K allows water to escape in case of a backup in the media. Water can then flow under the tank's false base back to pump C. Again, there is a polycarbonate wall supporting a Seio pump. Possibly a 1500 gph 1100. I want this tank to be more of a "brook tank", so need a lesser flow than in tank A which I propose to keep all my sucker-type hillstreams.

Again, the left end wall is the same design as in tank A. Because water does not flow directly out via a weir as in tank A I believe a balancing vent may be needed in the pump end wall. Again this would be mesh covered to isolate fish from the pump chamber, but allow good water-flow.

Another possibility is putting the Seio 1500 on the left end so water is pumped toward pump C. I have to work out the dimensions and packaging to maximize the fish section size. Basically, I will need the pumps before the tanks so that I can work out this fine detail before giving the tank-builder precise dimension requirements.

Any extra filtration may be added in the end pump chambers. I'm thinking maybe an Aquaclear 500 (now 110) HOB mounted on each tank's right end. Intake and outlet would all be outside the actual fish part of the aquarium so there is no visual clutter in with the fish. The end chambers and underflow chamber can be covered with a removable panel for inspection purposes.

http://www.atlantisaquatics.co.uk/acata ... pumps.html

I can get the Seio pumps for roughly the same figures, but in CDN$

http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_pum ... sp?CartId=

I was quoted $400 a piece for the tanks with the false floor. The weir and drillings in tank A will increase that price, plus the substrate retainers will add a bit. That's in half-inch glass too!

I'm looking at this as a later this year project.

Martin.

[brett_fishman]

.....wow...

thats the most rediculous idea i have EVER heard!!!

are you going to put the heaters (if any) in the pump chambers?

if the power goes out, wont the water flow down the rigid piping from B to A in reverse and create a siphon?? that would be tragic, the B tank would just overflow like that!! *snaps fingers*
or did you already explain this..?

-brett.

EDIT: ohhhhh, nevermind, i found the hole J...haha

[Martin Thoene]

I don't think you read posts very closely sometimes brett. You often ask about something that's in a post. There's a hole at J to act as a syphon break.
No heaters will be necessary for these fish.

Martin.

[Jim Powers]

Now that is a serious river tank system!!

[Graeme Robson]

Indeed serious!

Fry catching system seems or must be in there!

[Martin Thoene]

That's why the door screen mesh. It stops mosquitos.

Martin.

[brett_fishman]

martin, after i initially posted, i went back and looked, found it, then posted an 'edit', before you replied..so..i had it figured out before you replied..

but yes, i dont read longer posts very closely sometimes..

-brett.

[chris1932]

Is there a way to prevent flow reversion in the lower tank? I read the post but I am still not quite sure. Where water flows into the lower tank, and the lower tank flow meets this upper flow. Is there going to be a small baffle between the mesh and the wall that hole K is in?

It looks like a great idea!

[crazy loaches]

Looks similar to a concept a had but with some distinct advantages (for a river setup).

A couple things... I assume you know with the false bottom that cleaning will pretty much be impossible in the bottom. Though probably most of the algea (and perhaps bacteria) that will accumulate will probably be beneficial. I am uncertain as to why your entire flow just doesnt go through your tank,instead using these false bottoms that bypass the filtration? Seems like this false floor would creat a huge amount of complexity and cost, and I am just not seing the benefit? The other is that it appears some of your filtration is in the 'overflow' (f). From my research so far on overflow systems (I am starting to work on my first - by no means an expert) is that you have to be carefull with any obstruction placed in the overflow, unless it has an emergency oveflow and/or you pay very close attention to it. If your overflow becomes even partly restriced, to the point were your return pump can flow more than what can flow over the overflow and thorugh the restriction, youll flood the top tank. Remember if your trying to pump 1,000 gph from your return pump 'c' (for example) then your flow rate over your overflow, through whatever media and into the bottom tank must exceed 1,000gph by a good margin or you'll have wet feet!

Anyhow, figured I would share my custom design - I was originally thinking hillstreams in the lower & faster current 'sump' tank, and another coolwater fish in the top tank, but the tanks I think would be way to big for what I really wanted (though I could scale it down). With my recent large tank purchase, I have promised my wife that I am actually going to reduce the number of tanks I had, so this also scrapped my idea here, doh! So here is what I whipped up (rather quickly, I didnt include alot of detail, sorry):


Here is the basic design, done to scale with a 150G XH tank as the main tank and a 100G L sump tank. I pictured a tricke/wet/dry filter but I was also thinking about doing a heavily planted tank and would submerge all the filtration so as to not gas-off co2.


And here is what the stand I would build would look like. The stand would only show the central part of the sump tank and not the ends were the filtration and equipment are. And since everything is on the ends, the back can be open and viewable, for use as a 'room divider'. But alas I probably wont get the chance to build it, my 150 will probably be the final tank for my goldies.

[Mark in Vancouver]

Martin's got to work on his 's and "s. I saw the diagram and thought 18 x 6 feet??!!

Seriously though, what is the total volume you're looking for here? And what sort of weight would you end up with? How would you plan to light the lower tank?

And much more basically, what is the benefit to stacking two tanks? That part is one I don't get. Beyond tank B acting as a sump filter for A, you're not going to get a gravitational benefit from the water falling, are you? If so, what will prevent tank B from just overflowing once the water is circulating?

I imagine there are many hydrological aspects to this you've thought through, but I have to say that I'd need to see it running before I could imagine the benefits. Which is to say, it looks GREAT on paper. But my slow mind is still a little confused by it.

It's some sort of fish tank, right?

[Martin Thoene]

OK....break it down. Think basic River-Tank mamifold. Intake water goes via tubes to powerhead right? The limitation on ultimate flow is not the pump size but the tubing diameter. Increase the tubing diameter and you still have to bury it. Now you have deep substrate when you don't need it.

So do away with the tubes. Now the restriction on flow is gone. A powerhead creates a very concentrated output resulting in "bounce-back" off the opposite tank end wall. Here the wall is permeable. The water will circulate with less flow disruption. It will go around and around.

Same for the bottom tank. Round and around. No water moves from tank to tank until you switch on pump C. Pump C fills tank A up to the weir, then water overflows into the fittings through the tank base. These must flow in excess of the pump's capacity just by gravity or Tank A will fill up eventually.

Switch off pump C and water will back-syphon into tank B via the right hand feed pipe from pump C. The water level in tank B must be lower than tank A to allow water to back-syphon until the hole J becomes exposed to air and this will stop the syphon action. In other words, hole J must be set at a distance from the top of the weir (left end).... which controls tank A's water level.....that equals the difference in the two tank's levels. i.e. there is room for that water in B.

Tank A can only overflow if something restricts flow through in the bottom fittings or flexible pipe. As the water must pass through fine mesh screen before reaching the weir large solids such as plant leaves will not be able to get to the weir or the bioballs, which are themselves very free-flowing. Any solid build-up on the screen is very visible and can easily be removed via a syphon. If it got very blocked water from pump C would just bypass the fish area and flow under the floor of that to the weir.

A mesh-covered balance vent (as described) in the powerhead wall would allow flow reversal in the event of the big end wall mesh becoming restricted.

Lights for the lower tank can be flourecsents mounted tight up under the top tank. Capacity empty is 100.9 gallons each, total weight around 1800 lbs I would guess based on an Aquarium Calculator I just used online.

Advantage of one tank above the other is floor space utilization. The stand has to be custom made because I want the bottom tank at a reasonable viewing height.

If the costs start to get prohibitive, I would settle for one tank set up like this and just use existing filtration with intakes and returns in the end chambers, i.e. not in the fish part. However, I want to consolidate existing tanks into these two. The linking via a pump is to increase the effective capacity that the fish are living in.

Martin.

[hemi]

i believe that the wall marked E is a baffle
that would keep the top tank form overflowing the bottom tank if the power goes out

i do not understand this system
but it sounds like it might work out

[Martin Thoene]

Maybe I need to draw this 3-dimensionally, then people will get it.

Martin.

[crazy loaches]

Martin - I think it looks good, probably one of the most custom DIY setups I have seen! I hope you get a chance to actually do it.

[Setsuna]

Looks great! I didnt fully understand the technical side of things, but thats nothing new for me. I got the general idea.

Make sure if/when you get it done you share photos with us ^_^