Loaches Online Forum

Man, oh man. So I think I mentioned that I got new loaches a few weeks back, after finally getting over the trauma of losing the first couple to what I had then thought was an ich plague. Their being new fish and babies, I was on the lookout for anything that might be amiss (the tank they went into had only one fish to begin with, so I figured that was close enough to quarantine). A little more than a week ago, I start seeing a kubotai flashing. However, all fish are eating heartily, quite active, and the water numbers are looking good, so I'm not sure if he's just not liking the water change or what (do they do that even when there's nothing in the water, since it came from the RO tank?). I toss in a capful of Melafix and start keeping an eye peeled just in case. Not hard when the tank is at eye level next to my desk.

A week ago, the drama starts. I see more flashing and no spots, so start shining to the flashlight. However, when the fish are either orangey or gold to begin with, this is not much help. *facepalm* The smallest baby, though, is looking a little peaked, so up goes the temp and air supply, out goes the charcoal, and in goes a dose of Rally (acriflavine, aminoacridine, formalin). Bigger water changes for the next few days, keeping the med levels the same. They are all still eating and looking like, "What's all the fuss about?" The weekend comes and I have to leave for them alone until Sunday night. When I come back, the clowns are all covered in pinprick spots and the gold is *very* obvious. I freak out, upon realizing that this was actually what my previous clowns had looked like before they died, and that what I had before was not ich. (Different tank, nothing brought over except fish.)

I keep up the acriflavine and Melafix, but they only go downhill. Monday night, the smallest one passes away, the rest of the clowns are drooping badly and trips to various stores have not yielded many alternatives I'm ready to deal with. Coppersafe sounds, well, *coppery* and I'd read somewhere that Maracide was weakened to the point of unusefulness? I figure a half-dose of ich cure (malachite green, acriflavine hydrochloride) might do something. Nothing, and the clowns are all gone by this morning. The babies, I kind of figured were a gamble. The fact that they took Scooby with them, I'm upset about, but am now thinking was probably inevitable since he was compromised from the first bout last year.

Here's the weirdness: my 3 kubotai, other than flashing frequently, still act and look exactly the same as before all this. They are still eating, still active and alert, and I can't tell if they have any "dust" because they're already gold. No patchiness, to speak of. I am *very* confused and wondering if I should continue with the meds, or if the meds are causing their flashing. There's definitely something yucky in the tank, and they've been exposed to it. But I don't know what to do anymore. Help?!

have you done water changes?

Yes, they've been getting 25% daily water changes from the beginning, when I noticed the flashing. I upped it to 50% this weekend and vacuumed *very* thoroughly. I've been putting back in the same percentage of medication I take out with each change, as well. I tested for nitrates and it's usually 5ppm or lower (hard to tell with my test kit when it reaches the ends on either side).

I've never dealt with Velvet before so I can't advise on that,.

In reference to the beginning of your story, it seems to me like sometimes loaches just flash, and it doesn't mean they need to be medicated. I have had yoyos flashing for no particular reason in nearly perfect water quality like you were describing at the beginning of your story, and they just stopped after a couple of weeks without me needing to do anything but my normal tank maintenance. My personal opinion is that medicating is a bad idea unless you have something specific you know you're dealing with.

I hesitate sharply before using melafix, as I have heard a lot of bad experiences with it stressing already sick fish, and I have not seen any improved results when using it myself. The only thing I've heard it is good for is healing wounds.

What did your fish look like before they died? Anything like this thread?

http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=6284

If you're sure it's velvet there are two forms.
"The other major group of external flagellates are the parasitic
dinoflagellates. These are most often referred to as Oodinium.
Actually the taxonomy of these has changed quite a bit over the past
few years. Most species have been put in three other genera -
Amyloodinium (saltwater species), Crepidoodinium (estuarine and
marine) and Piscinoodinium (freshwater species). All cause what has
been termed velvet disease. The skin of infected fish has a very fine
granular (almost dusty appearance) and sometimes has a sort of
sheen to it because of the chloroplasts within the dinoflagellates.
These parasites can infect either skin or gills. This is more commonly
a problem in aquarium fishes than in cultured food fish.
Most dinoflagellates are free-living, they contain chromato-

phores, often chlorophyll and so are able to produce their own food.
The parasitic forms have a life cycle similiar to Ich - where there is a
stage which requires a fish host. The parasitic stage or the trophont
which varies in size from 15 um wide and 100 um long to as large as
700 um in length. It is attached and has a visible membrane. It lacks
flagella and is not motile when you see it in wet mounts. When mature
it detachs from the host, enlarges and becomes encycted. Within the
cyst binary fission occurs to produce flagellated dinospores. These are
about 20 um in diameter and they look like a typical dinoflagellates.
They have one longitudinal and one transverse flagellum within
grooved girdles. These attach to the new host. They may attach
either by a disk (Oodinium) or by rhizoids or rootlike structures
(Amyloodinium). The species which attach by rhizoids cause much
more tissue destruction. They apparently absorb cytoplasmic fluid
from the host tissue for part of their nourishment. Even the parasitic
forms are capable of some photosynthesis and so in low numbers are
probably commensals.
Some contain yellowish-brown to green chromatophores and
some contain dark brown to black. Diagnosis can be based on wet
mounts and the presence of the dinoflagellates.
Mortalities will be highest in young fish. The signs of disease are
flashing, cessation of feeding, may have hemorrhage, inflammation
and necrosis of the epithelium. Hyperplasia of gill epithelium leading to
respiratory and osmoregulatory problems is usually the cause of death.
Development of the disease depends on water temperature and light.
At 23-25 C and light development of the dinospores takes 50-70 hours.
At 15 -17 C or in the datk this may take 11 days or more. So, potential
treatments or at least methods to lower mortalities are lowering the
temperature and/or reducing the light."
http://www.afip.org/vetpath/POLA/fish_diseases.txt

Hi, Shari --

Yeah, the clowns were getting patches like that near the end, and had a very obvious greeny-brown shine on their black stripes. Some had bits of slime coat starting to come off. Four were very young and the biggest has always been a bit on the delicate side since the last tank plague. It's why I got a new tank and stopped using treated tap water.

I read through everything I could find on this forum and in other places, to see what I could do for the remaining fish, which aren't showing anything major, but do have a few tiny spots on the tails and are flashing frequently. Based on what I've been reading (thanks for the article, btw), I'll take out everything but the acriflavin and keep it through until next Wednesday. That's about two weeks, which should let the stuff kill anything free-swimming. Should I let the temps go back down as well, since it seems like the remaining loaches would have a better chance of fighting it if the development slowed down?

Tammy -- I was hoping that the flashing was just a water change thing, except that it only started happening within the past couple of weeks. The fish had been with me for a little under a month before that with no problems. And then it started happening with more than one fish, not only after water changes but throughout, hence my freakout. Maybe I overreacted with the meds, but the progress did become more evident when the temperatures went up, and it was so similar to the outbreak from last year that I didn't want to take any chances. I've used Rally (acriflavin) for new fish going through quarantine before with no problems, so figured it would be a good place to start even if it did turn out to be a false alarm. I actually heard about Melafix as a general tonic, and hadn't read anything about it being an additional stressor.