Loaches Online Forum

Long time no chat, I've been dealing with a very difficult buy with my marine tanks. My clown loach with the goosebumps, got a tiny bit worse/more pronounced, then it has stabilized. Behavior and appetite have remained normal throughout.

Sooooooooo-------I'm now almost ready to move my loaches--probably 2 weeks. Here are the details--please provide as much feedback as possible!

Fish have been in an established 46 gallon tank, filtration provided by an aquaclear 70 and emperor 50 (gallon). Substrate has been standard petsmart blue gravel. They were put in this tank ~1 year ago.

New tank: 4' long 75 gallon tank, AND I have 50 pounds of the S-grade 3M quart sand, black. Not yet cleaned.

How do I wash the sand sufficiently? I have coolers to work with, if needed.

My initial ideas--please comment--from now until I make the change (probably 2 weeks) do 5 gallon water changes every 2-3 days and store the "old" water in a large trashcan I have with a powerhead.

Then on day of move, take down the 46, I have a 20 long into which fish can go for temporary storage while I setup the 75 gallon.

Can I just put in the sand in the 75g, add in water from the 46g along with stored "old" water, and pretty much just move the fish in?

Unfortunately, the 75 will be going in the same spot as the 46, so that provides some limitations, possibly.

Thanks!

Do not bother saving the water. It has little in the way of beneficial bacteria, and may be high in nitrates.

I have done many tank changes, and would do it like this:
1) In the week or two before the change do several thorough gravel vacs. Disturbing the established tank can stir up quite a cloud of debris. Clean it out ahead of time. Similarly, clean the filters ahead of time so the bacteria can recover.
2) Wash the new substrate. One way is to use a pillow case, another is to use window screen (the more flexible plastic stuff) Another way is to do small batches in a 5 gallon bucket. Get a hose going in the bucket, and keep stirring and allowing the water to flow over until it flows clear.
3) Set up the new tank somewhere that leaks do not matter, and test it for leaks, wash it out. Same with any new equipment.
4) If your water must sit overnight or be treated in any way, set it up. (I use a 32 gallon Rubbermaid Brute garbage can to pre-treat water when that is needed) Be prepared with at least one full tank of water, as if all new water will fill the new tank.

The day of the switch:
a) Unplug all equipment
b) Set up buckets or other storage containers for the fish. They will feel safest in the dark, with few fish to hurt each other (not in a large group) Put a lid over the buckets, or a dark cover over the spare tank. Scared fish will jump.
c) siphon the cleanest water into the fish buckets. Add fish. Save plants, decorations and equipment in plastic storage boxes, or buckets. The beneficial bacteria will thrive if it is kept damp, it does not have to be covered with water. If the filters will be re-started within an hour, do not bother taking them apart. Longer than that, and the bacteria might appreciate more oxygen. Save clean water for re-use with plants, equipment, or by itself. Do not count on re-using the fish water. Run a bubbler or a small filter in the fish buckets if you need to. Better to have few fish in many buckets.
d) Remove enough stuff from the old tank that it can be moved out of the way. Do not attempt to move a tank with more than a few pounds of water/gravel/other stuff; the strain could open a leak.
e) move the new tank in, level and stabilize it. (you DO have a level, don't you?)
f) add gravel, decor, small amount of water, plants (keep adding water...)
g) set up equipment, allow the heater to equalize to the tank temperature before plugging it in. Test the equipment. Since you already did this a few days ago, you know it all works, this is to get it all adjusted to where you want it in the tank. Finish filling the tank the last couple of inches when you know you do not have to stick your arms back in there.
h) Add the fish. The water in their buckets will have a lot of Ammonia and stress hormones, so I would not add much (if any) of this water. Net result can be as much as 50% to 100% water change. As long as the new water matches the old this has caused no problems for my fish.
i) lights out, and no food (or half rations) for a day or so, until the fish feel at home. Monitor Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate to be sure the tank has no problems, and be ready to do a water change if the tank shows a minicycle or worse.

run the filters from the first tank on the second tank for a while to keep the water cycled until new filters have built up their bacteria level....

I wouldn't save the old water either. I'd just condition the fish for the new water. If you use that ro waste wate during water changes, like you discussed in pm's, that would condition them enough for the change.

After you condition the fish and move them to the new tank, I think you should probably try treating the clown with the white goosebumps before moving it over. Treat the fish in a q-tank for about 10 days with a wide spectrum of antibiotics. Maybe use a combo of Maracyn I & II and see if that helps any.

Keith and others, thanks for these ideas. Goosebumps is still goosin'. I agree--appropriate time for QT and treament. 2 questions, to make sure I'm clear. First--I can safely treat with both Maracyn I and II for broader spectrum antibiotic treatment? Second--what dose would you recommend for this goosebump'd clown? Regular? Half dose? etc... Since the fish still has these wierd bumps, but otherwise is eating and thriving (though there has been some mild decline--it has a "sickly" look now), I don't want to choose action and accidently harm or kill the fish.


The tank swapout will be happening this weekend. I'll try to remember to get before and after pix---hopefully an improvement for the occupants!

Thanks, doglover

when doing changeovers to new tanks or oving house, i always keep some fo the old water. it might have the nitrates in it but it wont be such a huge change for the fish. check for nitrates etc and as long as it isnt sky high it should be ok. if yu are concerned about things like nitrates you can alwasy do small water changes in the days following the upgrade.

KhuliKhilla wrote:when doing changeovers to new tanks or oving house, i always keep some fo the old water. it might have the nitrates in it but it wont be such a huge change for the fish. check for nitrates etc and as long as it isnt sky high it should be ok. if yu are concerned about things like nitrates you can alwasy do small water changes in the days following the upgrade.

In his original post he was suggesting storing old tank water taken out during water changes for a week. Any beneficial bacteria would be dead - not like transferring water straight from one running tank to another.

Don't forget the Prime too..it will keep any spikes in Ammonia, Nitrates or Nitrites from hurting your fish but will still provide the materials for your biofilter to mature...

Kevin

Can I just put in the sand in the 75g, add in water from the 46g along with stored "old" water, and pretty much just move the fish in?

...no...
sorry this is a book!

here's what I do. Your mileage may vary and there's as many ways to do this as there are fishkeepers.

If you're planning this happening this weekend I would suggest doing a couple of things now:

1. Wash your sand. 5 Gal buckets outside is easy, but prepare for a lot of water running. Mud. There will be mud. Unless you have a patio/deck or someplace without dirt by your hose. Stir and rinse till clear, then drain and move the clean sand into a moveable size container. Covers are good, esp if it will sit in a garage or outside. Don't want junk getting in it.
This is also a good time to test (on a level space) your 75 for leaks, and to wash it out.

2. Set up your 20g today or tomorrow and add some biomaterial from your running filters, either a sponge, or a bag with substrate, a few pieces of decor, but no loose gravel. Do you have plants? How much of your 46g decor will fit in the 20? If it will all fit (temporarily) move enough of that out to the 20 to make things cozy in there and keep the remaining stuff in the 46 till the day of the move. Get the temp stable and make sure it has a good cover. Can you move the 50 or the 70 over directly, or do you have another filter you plan to use? This way your fish will have an established place to be, temporarily, and you won't have to worry about buckets, air stones, heaters etc all over the place. Test the water for temp, chemistry etc. If ok, move a couple of small fish in right after set up, then do the rest of your prep work.

3. Make sure you have a place out of the way to put the 46 when you take it down. And a place to put your equipment. If your heaters will fit into the 20 while your setting up the 75 that would be a good place to move them to. Turn them off a bit before you move them so they are not hot when you take them out of the water. You don't turn them on in the 20, they just sit there to keep the right temp for when you move them back over to the filled 75. Are you keeping any of the gravel from the 46? If so, you need a clean bucket for the removed gravel.

The day of the move:

1. When you are ready to take down the 46 put the rest of the decor from the 46 either into a bucket or the 20. Take out half the water and discard it. Move the remaining fish into the running 20. Yes, it will be crowded. However, it's not like an unfiltered bucket, and they won't be in there long. With an established filter running on the tank they should be fine for several hours. You will be moving most of the stuff back out of there to the 75, right? The moved fish will appreciate the multitudes of hiding spaces while they are in there, and you can leave the bumpy clown behind to use the 20 as a qtank, unless you already have one set up?

2. Take down the 46. Remove all equipment (store filters in buckets or your coolers with some water), substrate, and water. Move the tank out of the way. Backyard is good. You can rinse the tank out later before you move it to it's final resting place.

3. Move in the cleaned, and tested 75. Level it! Have your needed equipment in a space out of the way, but accessible. First thing I do is add the substrate, then cover it with treated clean water till about 1/4 - 1/3 full (or more if you can't start a gravel vac). Stir the sand and make sure it settles down with no air pockets. There will be silt on top of the substrate. Vac it up, and refill part way with clean, treated (tank temp) water. When you pour water into the tank, put a plate or something on the sand and pour over/onto that. It stops the water from blowing the sand around. Make sure you don't fill it too high. It's easier to aquascape if you're not up to your armpits in water.

4. Aquascape the tank while it's part full. Add your decor, plants, whatever. Fill with tank temp water (not quite full), check for air bubbles in the substrate, poke around to make sure there are none, let settle, and vac the silt out again. You can skip this step if you don't see silt settling all over the surfaces.

5. Add the filters to the tank. Turn them on. Check the temp in the 20 and the 75. If they are quite close add the heaters. Turn them on and set them. Let it run for 20 minutes with the lid off while you clean up whatever messes are around. Put away stuff you won't need, get together stuff you will need. Gravel vac again if you need to. Refill the tank to almost the right height. Test the water parameters between the 20 and the 75. Hopefully, they are close. If you've used warm water for your water changes the temp should be ok. If it's too far different do a water change again to match them up. You can put hot or cold water into the 75 since there's no fish. Just watch the heaters. Don't pour cold water directly near them!

6. Since you've taken most of the stuff out of the 20 (I'm assuming), it's time to catch the fish. Sometimes that's easiest if you remove some water first. As far as moving the fish themselves goes, the most important thing to me is matching the water, and minimizing stress. Be as gentle as possible. Net them from one tank to the other if they are close by, if not, half fill a clean bucket with water from the 75, and water from the 20. Net them into the bucket, bring the bucket to the 75 and net them (or pour them very gently into the 75. Put on the cover. Leave the lights off. Watch the tank to see how the fish settle. Then, go back to the 20, refill with clean, treated water. Leave those lights off too.
Don't feed them till the next day and feed lightly for several days.

7. Clean up.

8. Think about how to treat your clown. If he's not too bad off, give him a day after the big move before you start treatment.

Shari, Thanks for the thoughts--I always appreciate thoughtful suggestions and advice! Given your book it's easier for me to comment and ask questions below--IN CAPS:

1. Wash your sand. 5 Gal buckets outside is easy, but prepare for a lot of water running. Mud. There will be mud. Unless you have a patio/deck or someplace without dirt by your hose. Stir and rinse till clear, then drain and move the clean sand into a moveable size container. Covers are good, esp if it will sit in a garage or outside. Don't want junk getting in it.
This is also a good time to test (on a level space) your 75 for leaks, and to wash it out.

100 LBS OF COLORQUARTZ SAND IS ALL WASHED AND WAITING IN LARGE COOLERS (WITH TOPS!). I HAVE A LARGE PORCH, SO NO MUD PROBLEMS.

THE 75 DESTINATION TANK *HAD* BEEN MY HOLDING TANK MOVING MY SW TANK INTO MY NEW 125--SO IT HAS NO LEAKS--JUST NEED TO CLEAN IT, THEN MOVE IT BACK IN AND LEVEL IT

***I WILL *NOT* BE CONTINUING TO USE THE OLD GRAVEL NOW THAT I HAVE THE NEW SAND*

2. Set up your 20g today or tomorrow and add some biomaterial from your running filters, either a sponge, or a bag with substrate, a few pieces of decor, but no loose gravel. Do you have plants? How much of your 46g decor will fit in the 20? If it will all fit (temporarily) move enough of that out to the 20 to make things cozy in there and keep the remaining stuff in the 46 till the day of the move. Get the temp stable and make sure it has a good cover. Can you move the 50 or the 70 over directly, or do you have another filter you plan to use? This way your fish will have an established place to be, temporarily, and you won't have to worry about buckets, air stones, heaters etc all over the place. Test the water for temp, chemistry etc. If ok, move a couple of small fish in right after set up, then do the rest of your prep work.

*MY MOVE WILL BE HAPPENING SATURDAY--ARE YOU SAYING SET UP THE TANK NOW *AND* START MOVING FISH NOW, OR WAIT TO RELOCATE FISH TO 20G UNTIL DAY OF THE MOVE?

I CAN SET THE 20G UP. THE BIOWHEEL FROM MY PENGUIN 20 HAS BEEN IN MY 46G FW TANK FOR OVER A WEEK, SO SHOULD HAVE A DECENT AMOUNT OF BACTERIA. I HAVE 4 FILTERS TO DO ALL OF THIS---2 OPERATING ONES (AQUACLEAR 70 AND EMPEROR 50); THEN BIOWHEELS FOR PENGUIN 20 (FOR QT) AND 2 BIOWHEELS FROM BIG OL' EMPEROR HAVE BEEN IN THE WATER IN 46G 7-10 DAYS, SO SHOULD ALSO HAVE SOME DECENT BACTERIA IN THEM. THE EXTRA BIOWHEELS HAVE BEEN STUCK IN INTAKE OF POWERHEADS, SO THEY ARE GETTING GOOD FLOW.

THE 46G HAS 2 LARGE PIECES OF DRIFTWOOD AND MAYBE 10 FAKE PLANTS, AND A GERBIL TUBE THING. ALL OF THAT *SHOUD* FIT IN MY 20G LONG.

I WILL BE MOVING DIRECTLY OVER THE FILTERS FROM THE 46G TO THE 20G HOLDING TANK/QT DURING THE MOVE.

I HAVE AN EXTRA 32 GALLON TRASH CAN I'LL BE FILLING UP MORNING OF THE MOVE AND ADDING IN A POWERHEAD FOR OXYGENATING THE WATER AND A HEATER TO HAVE TEMPS MATCHED.

3. Make sure you have a place out of the way to put the 46 when you take it down. And a place to put your equipment. If your heaters will fit into the 20 while your setting up the 75 that would be a good place to move them to. Turn them off a bit before you move them so they are not hot when you take them out of the water. You don't turn them on in the 20, they just sit there to keep the right temp for when you move them back over to the filled 75. Are you keeping any of the gravel from the 46? If so, you need a clean bucket for the removed gravel.

The day of the move:

1. When you are ready to take down the 46 put the rest of the decor from the 46 either into a bucket or the 20. Take out half the water and discard it. Move the remaining fish into the running 20. Yes, it will be crowded. However, it's not like an unfiltered bucket, and they won't be in there long. With an established filter running on the tank they should be fine for several hours. You will be moving most of the stuff back out of there to the 75, right?

YES

The moved fish will appreciate the multitudes of hiding spaces while they are in there, and you can leave the bumpy clown behind to use the 20 as a qtank, unless you already have one set up?
NO QT YET--THAT WILL BE THE 20G WHEN I SET IT UP.

2. Take down the 46. Remove all equipment (store filters in buckets or your coolers with some water), substrate, and water. Move the tank out of the way. Backyard is good. You can rinse the tank out later before you move it to it's final resting place.

3. Move in the cleaned, and tested 75. Level it! Have your needed equipment in a space out of the way, but accessible. First thing I do is add the substrate, then cover it with treated clean water till about 1/4 - 1/3 full (or more if you can't start a gravel vac). Stir the sand and make sure it settles down with no air pockets. There will be silt on top of the substrate. Vac it up, and refill part way with clean, treated (tank temp) water. When you pour water into the tank, put a plate or something on the sand and pour over/onto that. It stops the water from blowing the sand around. Make sure you don't fill it too high. It's easier to aquascape if you're not up to your armpits in water.

OK--THE SILT YOU MEAN IS THE DUST BECAUSE THIS IS NEW 3M COLORQUART SAND--CORRECT? BECAUSE I WILL *NOT* BE USING THE OLD GRAVEL CURRENTLY IN THE 46G.

4. Aquascape the tank while it's part full. Add your decor, plants, whatever. Fill with tank temp water (not quite full), check for air bubbles in the substrate, poke around to make sure there are none, let settle, and vac the silt out again. You can skip this step if you don't see silt settling all over the surfaces.

OK

5. ALL OK

6. Since you've taken most of the stuff out of the 20 (I'm assuming), it's time to catch the fish. Sometimes that's easiest if you remove some water first. As far as moving the fish themselves goes, the most important thing to me is matching the water, and minimizing stress. Be as gentle as possible. Net them from one tank to the other if they are close by,

THEY WILL BE IN SAME ROOM, PROBABLY 25 FEET AWAY. I WAS THINKING NETTING TANK TO TANK WOULD BE EASIEST.

if not, half fill a clean bucket with water from the 75, and water from the 20. Net them into the bucket, bring the bucket to the 75 and net them (or pour them very gently into the 75. Put on the cover. Leave the lights off. Watch the tank to see how the fish settle. Then, go back to the 20, refill with clean, treated water. Leave those lights off too.
Don't feed them till the next day and feed lightly for several days.

7. Clean up.

8. Think about how to treat your clown. If he's not too bad off, give him a day after the big move before you start treatment.

WAITING A DAY OR TWO PROBABLY A GREAT IDEA. WHILE HE HAS LOOKED WORSE OVER PAST 6 WEEKS, HE IS STILL BIG AND FAT, BEHAVIOR AND EATING ARE GOOD. I'M STILL NOT SURE ABOUT MEDS AND DOSING--SOMEONE RECOMMENDED MARACYN I AND II--CAN I DO BOTH AT SAME TIME, AND IF SO, WHAT DOSAGE?

Maracyn and Maracyn II are designed to be used together.
The package insert has the dosages: a double dose the first day, then regular dosing is their method.
Tank light out. One of them is light sensitive. Room light is OK.
O2 will be low in the medicated tank. Add powerhead, bubbler, filter, or lower the water level enough so the return from the filter splashes a bit. Watch the fish for signs of low O2 (Hanging at the surface)
Treat for 5 days. If the Ammonia, Nitrite or Nitrates tell you to do a water change then re-dose the meds.
On the 6th day do 2 water changes, 50% each 12 hours apart. On the 7th day repeat the 5 day treatment.

Thanks Diana. I know with some meds for loaches people seem to recommend 1/2 dose--perhaps this is just antiparasitics.

That's why I'm double checking on maracyn dose for this clown--full dose of both should be okay?

Thanks for the other thoughts such as aeration, etc...

Antibiotics (including maracyns) should be used at full dose and very occasionally overdosed. Use at half-dose is dangerous: instead of killing the bacteria, you might end up with a drug-resistant strain....making the situation much worse.

Halfdosing is generally for drugs that treat external parasites, these drugs are irritants, especially unpleasant for a fish not protected by scales. Internal parasite drugs and others are not half-dosed either.

hth

Well, things did not go perfectly with the move to the new 75g, but well enough. Looks like the tank and all fish made it intact--including goosebumps. He's in the 20g hospital and I started him on the maracyn I and II protocol tonight. He seems to appreciate the PVC pipe for hiding--that's a new one for him.


Everyone else seems to be settling in nicely and enjoying their new sand--though no burrowing yet.

Thanks to Shari and all for the help.

Somehow, even with the best of planning, some things don't go quite as planned.

Glad all the fish made it! Are you happy with your new set up?
Hopefully the antibiotic treatment will help goosebumps. I agree with mikev. It is important to do the full treatment.
Keep an eye on water quality in case of biofilter crashes and do water changes as needed. Make sure you replace the appropriate amount of medication with the return water.

Pics! we need pics.