Hello everyone. If you don't remember my story, I'm the one who got a pleco from the petstore with ich, didn't know it, don't have a quarantine tank, so he went right in with my six clown loaches and two electric blue malawi cichlids. I know that it's not an ideal setup now, from your feedback, and yesterday we bought a 72 gallon. It's empty, of course, because I have to cure my ich problem. And that is why I'm writing.
PLEASE help. First, I'm sure that it is ich. Tiny white speckles like salt on the fish body, rapid breathing. The loaches presented first with the rapid breathing and gasping for air, then after four days of exposure had white spots. I have tried to take photos but they are blurry. I got the pleco on Wednesday, noticed he had ich on Thursday, treated Thursday and Friday with Jungle Ich clear, and treated Saturday, Sunday, Monday, and today with Rid-Ich. On Saturday and Sunday, I put a full dose of Rid-Ich after a 25% water change each time. The bottle says that for stubborn cases, may dose every 12 hours. So on Monday I dosed twice. Last night I lost my first loach. This morning I lost a second loach, and now, right after a water change, I lost one of my cichlids. She was holding too, and we were planning to get another tank or two for that. She popped out her fry last night, and now she's dead. I'm not even worrying about the babies. They're in the gravel and I'm sure won't make it, although the other cichlid and loaches aren't eating anything. Anyway, everyone is getting worse. Their fins are fraying away into shreds, and tufts of cottony stuff is on parts of their skin.
1. Does ich, once a fish has had it for a week and is severely stressed, start to eat away at the fins and almost look like a cottony fungus?
2. Why is it getting worse, not better?
3. Could they have a secondary fungal infection (cotton looking stuff) or is this ich?
4. Rid-ich says not to use with any other medicine. Do I need to follow these instructions? If not, what other medicine can I use? I have melafix, pimafix, maracyn, maracyn II, coppersafe, and jungle parasite clear on hand.
5. Or do I just keep doing what I'm doing?
Please help.
2.
urgent questions about ich
Moderator: LoachForumModerators
As with any parasite, ich increases stress on the fish, the more stress that is inflicted upon a fish, the immunity can become compromised, leaving the fish open to secondary infection1. Does ich, once a fish has had it for a week and is severely stressed, start to eat away at the fins and almost look like a cottony fungus?
It may not be possible to view ich at early stages, the white spots that you are seeing are cysts that are getting ready to burst and release more ich parasites, it is possible it will get worse before it gets better2. Why is it getting worse, not better?
3. Could they have a secondary fungal infection (cotton looking stuff) or is this ich?
Yes it is possible that they could have a secondary infection
I would follow the instructions on the medication and try not to mix treatments unless otherwise recommended4. Rid-ich says not to use with any other medicine. Do I need to follow these instructions? If not, what other medicine can I use? I have melafix, pimafix, maracyn, maracyn II, coppersafe, and jungle parasite clear on hand.
I would persevere with what you are doing now. It is important to understand the lifecycle of the parasite that you are dealing with. Once the ich has infected the host, it is unable to be treated until the parasite is in the water column. What temp do you have the tank at? I would encourage to bump up the temp to about 30 degrees C, speed up the life cycle of the parasite; cysts will burst earlier releasing the parasites into the water column were your treatment will work on them. Vacuum the gravel, say about 1/3 per day, also make sure that the temp of the water changes is the same as the tank. Make sure the tank is well aerated, drop the water level a bit letting the output from the filters splash on the water surface-much more effective than a bubble wand. I would also say to have the lights out to reduce further stressing the fish.5. Or do I just keep doing what I'm doing?
You should start to see some improvement over the next 3-5days, if not and fish seem to have increasing spots, I would review your treatment, key is to be try and be patient-it is hard, the fish are sick and you want to do your best and to keep the stress to the fish to a minimum
hth
Ashleigh
Ich lives on the fish for a day or two before growing big enough to see. Highly likely the cycle in your tank went like this:
Pleco came in with Ich in his gills. You did not see it, and there were not enough to show symptoms. Within a day these Ich organisms left the fish, fell to the floor of the tank and began to reproduce. Even one Ich can produce a hundred or more babies. The babies swam in the tank for less than a day, and found new hosts. Some found the Pleco, others found your other fish.
It took a few days for them to grow big enough for you to see them.
On day 4, (after the Plec entered the tank) however, the earliest of the Ich babies had grown enough to see on the fish. Over another day or so more Ich babies swam around in the water and landed on the fish. Then you started medication. The last Ich babies that were alive took several days of growing before you could see them on the fish, so it seemed to you that the medicine was not working. The fish kept showing up with more Ich. In fact, that Ich had landed on the fish before the medication reached its therapeutic dose.
Next complication: Some Ich is showing resistance to the common medicines. If this is that sort of Ich, then yes, the medicine is not working.
As stated above, fish that are stressed in any way can catch other diseases easier. Rotting fins and cottony patches might be a bacteria called Flavobacter columnaris. It is a common cause of fin rot, and as it grows can mimic some fungi. True Fungus often gets started on dead or dying tissue, so the cottony stuff might also be a third problem, fungus growing on the fin tissue killed by the fin rot.
Here is what I would do:
1) Water changes daily. Vacuum the substrate every time.
WHY: Reduce the load of bacteria, fungus and Ich organisms in the water. Improve water quality by getting the nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate) as low as possible.
2) Add an ultra violet sterilizer to the tank. Make sure it is sized and plumbed correctly for your tank. Do not skimp and try to get by with 'just a little one'
WHY: UV can kill bacteria, fungus and Ich.
Unfortunately, many medicines are also deactivated by UV.
3) Add salt to the water. This is very hard on the Loaches, but not an issue for the Cichlids. Start with 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons, and add this slowly over several hours. Add this much daily, plus extra to replace what you remove with water changes.
WHY: Fish with so many injuries are also under osmotic stress. The lower dose of salt is just barely enough to help the fish with this. As the salt dose increases at some point it becomes deadly to the Ich, and it is not neutralized by UV. You must not raise the salt level too fast, though.
Here is an example of a schedule to follow:
(I will base this on a 29 gallon, if I remember that is the tank they are in now)
Day 1: 30% (10 gallons) water change, including gravel vac. Add 1 Tablespoon salt slowly over several hours. (3 teaspoons = 1 Tablespoon, 1 teaspoon = 5 ml)
Day 2: 30% water change, including gravel vac. Add 1 teaspoon of salt with the replacement water, and add 1 Tablespoon of salt slowly, over several hours.
Day 3: 30% water change, including gravel vac. Add 2 teaspoons of salt with the new water. Add 1 Tablespoon of salt slowly over several hours.
Day 4: 30% water change, including gravel vac. Add 1 Tablespoon salt with the new water.
Here it becomes a hard call to make. Fish that do not tolerate salt well can usually handle 1 Tablespoon per 10 gallons for a short term. But Ich will be killed more surely with more salt, as much as a Tablespoon per 5 gallons.
On the other hand, more salt is not helpful for the osmosis problem.
Also, the UV sterilizer is supposed to be killing the Ich. I hate to say this, but if all the Loaches have died at this point, but the Cichlids are still showing Ich, then keep adding salt, up to the point of 1 Tablespoon per 5 gallons. Then maintain that level for at least a week past the day you saw the last spot on any fish. The begin reducing the salt. Reduce it by doing water changes with less and less salt added if the tank needs frequent/large water changes, or if the nitrogen products stay low you can do fewer water changes and simply do not add salt.
The goal is to lower the salt level slowly, perhaps over a couple of weeks to a month.
Now... to incorporate antibacterial treatment with salt and UV...
Feed an antibiotic in food.
You can do some research about medications and UV, but I do not know how many are specifically labeled as OK for use with UV. Any that say to turn off the tank light will certainly NOT be OK with UV. Most meds ARE OK with salt in the water, though. Especially if they are labeled for both salt and fresh water tanks.
Pleco came in with Ich in his gills. You did not see it, and there were not enough to show symptoms. Within a day these Ich organisms left the fish, fell to the floor of the tank and began to reproduce. Even one Ich can produce a hundred or more babies. The babies swam in the tank for less than a day, and found new hosts. Some found the Pleco, others found your other fish.
It took a few days for them to grow big enough for you to see them.
On day 4, (after the Plec entered the tank) however, the earliest of the Ich babies had grown enough to see on the fish. Over another day or so more Ich babies swam around in the water and landed on the fish. Then you started medication. The last Ich babies that were alive took several days of growing before you could see them on the fish, so it seemed to you that the medicine was not working. The fish kept showing up with more Ich. In fact, that Ich had landed on the fish before the medication reached its therapeutic dose.
Next complication: Some Ich is showing resistance to the common medicines. If this is that sort of Ich, then yes, the medicine is not working.
As stated above, fish that are stressed in any way can catch other diseases easier. Rotting fins and cottony patches might be a bacteria called Flavobacter columnaris. It is a common cause of fin rot, and as it grows can mimic some fungi. True Fungus often gets started on dead or dying tissue, so the cottony stuff might also be a third problem, fungus growing on the fin tissue killed by the fin rot.
Here is what I would do:
1) Water changes daily. Vacuum the substrate every time.
WHY: Reduce the load of bacteria, fungus and Ich organisms in the water. Improve water quality by getting the nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate) as low as possible.
2) Add an ultra violet sterilizer to the tank. Make sure it is sized and plumbed correctly for your tank. Do not skimp and try to get by with 'just a little one'
WHY: UV can kill bacteria, fungus and Ich.
Unfortunately, many medicines are also deactivated by UV.
3) Add salt to the water. This is very hard on the Loaches, but not an issue for the Cichlids. Start with 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons, and add this slowly over several hours. Add this much daily, plus extra to replace what you remove with water changes.
WHY: Fish with so many injuries are also under osmotic stress. The lower dose of salt is just barely enough to help the fish with this. As the salt dose increases at some point it becomes deadly to the Ich, and it is not neutralized by UV. You must not raise the salt level too fast, though.
Here is an example of a schedule to follow:
(I will base this on a 29 gallon, if I remember that is the tank they are in now)
Day 1: 30% (10 gallons) water change, including gravel vac. Add 1 Tablespoon salt slowly over several hours. (3 teaspoons = 1 Tablespoon, 1 teaspoon = 5 ml)
Day 2: 30% water change, including gravel vac. Add 1 teaspoon of salt with the replacement water, and add 1 Tablespoon of salt slowly, over several hours.
Day 3: 30% water change, including gravel vac. Add 2 teaspoons of salt with the new water. Add 1 Tablespoon of salt slowly over several hours.
Day 4: 30% water change, including gravel vac. Add 1 Tablespoon salt with the new water.
Here it becomes a hard call to make. Fish that do not tolerate salt well can usually handle 1 Tablespoon per 10 gallons for a short term. But Ich will be killed more surely with more salt, as much as a Tablespoon per 5 gallons.
On the other hand, more salt is not helpful for the osmosis problem.
Also, the UV sterilizer is supposed to be killing the Ich. I hate to say this, but if all the Loaches have died at this point, but the Cichlids are still showing Ich, then keep adding salt, up to the point of 1 Tablespoon per 5 gallons. Then maintain that level for at least a week past the day you saw the last spot on any fish. The begin reducing the salt. Reduce it by doing water changes with less and less salt added if the tank needs frequent/large water changes, or if the nitrogen products stay low you can do fewer water changes and simply do not add salt.
The goal is to lower the salt level slowly, perhaps over a couple of weeks to a month.
Now... to incorporate antibacterial treatment with salt and UV...
Feed an antibiotic in food.
You can do some research about medications and UV, but I do not know how many are specifically labeled as OK for use with UV. Any that say to turn off the tank light will certainly NOT be OK with UV. Most meds ARE OK with salt in the water, though. Especially if they are labeled for both salt and fresh water tanks.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
Thank you Diana and Ashleigh;
Diana--
Should I discontinue the Rid-Ich? I did a dose today. Should Day 1 of your reccomended treatment start tomorrow?
Should I put an antifungal medicine in as well as feed antibiotic food?
Thank you so much for the time you took with your answer. Your knowledge is invaluable.
I'm so broken hearted over this.
Jamie
Diana--
Should I discontinue the Rid-Ich? I did a dose today. Should Day 1 of your reccomended treatment start tomorrow?
Should I put an antifungal medicine in as well as feed antibiotic food?
Thank you so much for the time you took with your answer. Your knowledge is invaluable.
I'm so broken hearted over this.
Jamie
Diana--
I just reread your response and I realized it answered most of my questions. I sent my last post off so quickly that I didn't stop to think through everything you said.
The only question I guess I still have is whether I should start tonight since I already did a water change this morning (25%) and vaccuumed the gravel or whether I should do the first treatment tomorrow?
Thanks again
I just reread your response and I realized it answered most of my questions. I sent my last post off so quickly that I didn't stop to think through everything you said.
The only question I guess I still have is whether I should start tonight since I already did a water change this morning (25%) and vaccuumed the gravel or whether I should do the first treatment tomorrow?
Thanks again
-
starsplitter7
- Posts: 5054
- Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:04 pm
- Location: Tampa, Florida
Provide LOTS of water movement. The more oxygen in the water the better. Whether the water movement is from a bubbler, a filter, a powerhead or other source is not the issue. When the water contacts the air above the tank it releases CO2 and takes in O2. The more water movement the more O2 will be in the water.
Of course you could overdo it. If htere are no calm places for the fish to rest, this is a bit much.
Dripping the salt in over several hours is the best, and works even if you are not there. Here is one set up:
Dissolve the salt in some warm water, perhaps a gallon or two (Whatever there is room for in the tank) and set this water in a bucket over the tank. Secure piece of air tubing in the water, (Try a rubber band around a rock) and tie a knot in the tubing. Loose, at first. Start a siphon in the tubing, aim the salt water into the tank, and tighten the knot. Get it to about 1-2 drops per second. Make sure the tubing will stay aimed at the tank.
A less complex way is to make up a cup of water with the day's dose of salt and set it near the tank. Every time you walk past add a few drops, or half an ounce of water to the tank. You need to be home, of course to do this, so you might be adding a little water every half hour or hour.
I would not combine a fungicide at this time. The UV sterilizer may slow the spread if it is a fungus issue.
Of course you could overdo it. If htere are no calm places for the fish to rest, this is a bit much.
Dripping the salt in over several hours is the best, and works even if you are not there. Here is one set up:
Dissolve the salt in some warm water, perhaps a gallon or two (Whatever there is room for in the tank) and set this water in a bucket over the tank. Secure piece of air tubing in the water, (Try a rubber band around a rock) and tie a knot in the tubing. Loose, at first. Start a siphon in the tubing, aim the salt water into the tank, and tighten the knot. Get it to about 1-2 drops per second. Make sure the tubing will stay aimed at the tank.
A less complex way is to make up a cup of water with the day's dose of salt and set it near the tank. Every time you walk past add a few drops, or half an ounce of water to the tank. You need to be home, of course to do this, so you might be adding a little water every half hour or hour.
I would not combine a fungicide at this time. The UV sterilizer may slow the spread if it is a fungus issue.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
Hey guys;
I've lost all of them, except the pleco.
Even my last cichlid, who I really thought was going to make it because he was showing the least signs of stress, and didn't even have the white spots, was dead this morning.
I'm going to keep treating, because I still have my pleco to save.
Thank you for all your help.
I've lost all of them, except the pleco.
Even my last cichlid, who I really thought was going to make it because he was showing the least signs of stress, and didn't even have the white spots, was dead this morning.
I'm going to keep treating, because I still have my pleco to save.
Thank you for all your help.
-
starsplitter7
- Posts: 5054
- Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:04 pm
- Location: Tampa, Florida
I am so sorry to hear this. I know this is absolutely devastating for you.
At the beginning I told you that we have all made the same mistakes you have. We have also endured the losses you have, and learn from our mistakes. I had an outbreak in my tank last month and lost several favorite fish, still have no idea why and only one fish showed signs of illness. They rest were perfect, just not alive.
The rest of the fish are fine, and I still don't know what happened.
Do take care of the Pleco. I love them even though they are big. If you chose to keep him, get a bigger tank eventually.
When you get your Pleco sorted out, I would break down the entire tank and clean it thoroughly with bleach. Rinse, rinse, rinse, rinse. Before you do that buy a second filter and put it on your ten (I am assuming those fish are still okay). Start cycling that filter on the ten, so that when you tear down your 29 and clean it, the gravel, the filter all with bleach, you have a filter set up to put right on the tank when it is clean. Then your tank is cycled because that filter is mature and cycled. Having extra filters helps in emergencies.
Everything you used with this tank must be cleaned throughly, don't use it with your ten (like hoses, buckets, . . . because you can contaminate the second tank). I keep a second bucket and hose for emergencies.
Then set it up again. Make sure you have a quarantine tank and start again. Don't give up.
At the beginning I told you that we have all made the same mistakes you have. We have also endured the losses you have, and learn from our mistakes. I had an outbreak in my tank last month and lost several favorite fish, still have no idea why and only one fish showed signs of illness. They rest were perfect, just not alive.
The rest of the fish are fine, and I still don't know what happened. Do take care of the Pleco. I love them even though they are big. If you chose to keep him, get a bigger tank eventually.
When you get your Pleco sorted out, I would break down the entire tank and clean it thoroughly with bleach. Rinse, rinse, rinse, rinse. Before you do that buy a second filter and put it on your ten (I am assuming those fish are still okay). Start cycling that filter on the ten, so that when you tear down your 29 and clean it, the gravel, the filter all with bleach, you have a filter set up to put right on the tank when it is clean. Then your tank is cycled because that filter is mature and cycled. Having extra filters helps in emergencies.
Everything you used with this tank must be cleaned throughly, don't use it with your ten (like hoses, buckets, . . . because you can contaminate the second tank). I keep a second bucket and hose for emergencies.
Then set it up again. Make sure you have a quarantine tank and start again. Don't give up.
I'm Sorry to hear it.
Once ich settles in, it can wipe out everything. I think every fish keeper has experienced the devestation of an ich outbreak. Not only can it kill the fish, but it can rip your heart into two. We all feel your pain.
It really bugs me that nearly all pet stores / LFS's sell ich carrying fish and that they never warn the customers that they absolutely need to quarantine and treat the fish for a few weeks before putting them in their main aquariums.
Those Clown Loaches could of lived 20+ years with proper care. Putting newly purchased fish in a tank without quarantining them 1st is like putting a wolf in a hen house.
This hobby of fish keeping is by no means simple. Parasites can go unnoticed for many months and will spread when you least expect it. That is why it is important to treat the fish for parasites while they are in quarantine, otherwise it could just be a waste of time quarantining them. That's just my opinion though.
Once ich settles in, it can wipe out everything. I think every fish keeper has experienced the devestation of an ich outbreak. Not only can it kill the fish, but it can rip your heart into two. We all feel your pain.
It really bugs me that nearly all pet stores / LFS's sell ich carrying fish and that they never warn the customers that they absolutely need to quarantine and treat the fish for a few weeks before putting them in their main aquariums.
Those Clown Loaches could of lived 20+ years with proper care. Putting newly purchased fish in a tank without quarantining them 1st is like putting a wolf in a hen house.
This hobby of fish keeping is by no means simple. Parasites can go unnoticed for many months and will spread when you least expect it. That is why it is important to treat the fish for parasites while they are in quarantine, otherwise it could just be a waste of time quarantining them. That's just my opinion though.
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starsplitter7
- Posts: 5054
- Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:04 pm
- Location: Tampa, Florida
Thank you guys for your kind words. I've cried so much the last week, not only because my fish were dying, but because of the guilt I feel over the fact that I was the reason they were sick.
I hate for learning experiences to come at the expense of lives, but at least I have learned. I will never put another fish into a tank without quarantining it first. I have also learned so much more about the care of loaches from reading the various posts on this forum.
Tanja--
I'm so sorry to hear about your recent loss, too. I hope your fish continue to be well.
Yes, I definitely plan to keep the pleco. He is still sick, and I will keep you posted. The ten gallon is still fine and I, of course, have not and will not use any of the same equipment on that one that I have used with the sick tank. I hope I never see ich again. Thank you for the suggestion about cycling a new filter in my ten gallon for use after I clean out the bigger tank.
By the way, I did get a bigger tank, a 72 gallon. I can't wait to set it up. But I won't worry about that until I get this ich problem settled.
Chefkeith-
Two days ago, I actually went into the Petsmart where I got the pleco and, sure enough, all their plecos and some of their other fish have ich, even though, when I called, I was told that the fish were fine. I told the manager about the ich, and he said, "Oh? I'll have one of the girls treat it. We'll have it cleared up by tomorrow." I told him that my fish were all dying though (I hadn't lost any at that time), and he did agree to replace any fish I lost (got it in writing).
I would love for you guys (and everyone else on the forum who wants to pitch in) to help me with great suggestions when I start setting up my 72 gallon. Although I'm new to loaches (less than a year), I've done a lot of research, understand how to get and keep a tank at desired parameters, now know how important it is to quarantine new additions to keep the tank healthy as well, and am ALWAYS trying and ready to learn more.
I want to grow old with my loaches.
--jamie
I hate for learning experiences to come at the expense of lives, but at least I have learned. I will never put another fish into a tank without quarantining it first. I have also learned so much more about the care of loaches from reading the various posts on this forum.
Tanja--
I'm so sorry to hear about your recent loss, too. I hope your fish continue to be well.
Yes, I definitely plan to keep the pleco. He is still sick, and I will keep you posted. The ten gallon is still fine and I, of course, have not and will not use any of the same equipment on that one that I have used with the sick tank. I hope I never see ich again. Thank you for the suggestion about cycling a new filter in my ten gallon for use after I clean out the bigger tank.
By the way, I did get a bigger tank, a 72 gallon. I can't wait to set it up. But I won't worry about that until I get this ich problem settled.
Chefkeith-
Two days ago, I actually went into the Petsmart where I got the pleco and, sure enough, all their plecos and some of their other fish have ich, even though, when I called, I was told that the fish were fine. I told the manager about the ich, and he said, "Oh? I'll have one of the girls treat it. We'll have it cleared up by tomorrow." I told him that my fish were all dying though (I hadn't lost any at that time), and he did agree to replace any fish I lost (got it in writing).
I would love for you guys (and everyone else on the forum who wants to pitch in) to help me with great suggestions when I start setting up my 72 gallon. Although I'm new to loaches (less than a year), I've done a lot of research, understand how to get and keep a tank at desired parameters, now know how important it is to quarantine new additions to keep the tank healthy as well, and am ALWAYS trying and ready to learn more.
I want to grow old with my loaches.
--jamie
Jamie,
Very sorry to hear about your losses. I've had a few problems lately myself and am learning the hard way.
I have completely stopped buying fish at PETSMART. They have one system that circulates water trough all 100 or so tanks so if one fish has ich or anything else, they all have it. I learned this the hard way. If you must buy form them quarantine is a must.
After infecting my main tanks twice with unquarantined PETSMART fish I set up a ten gallon for a q tank. Recently I bought 2 hillstreams from another LFS and quarantined them for 2 weeks. They looked fine so I transferred them to my new rivertank and 2 days later they came down with ich! I think the stress of moving them brought it on but they were carrying it all along.I lost my favorite little gastomyzon already and am now treating the tank. So obviously 2 weeks wasn't enough. Next time I'll try 3?
Good luck with your pleco and setting up your new tank!
Very sorry to hear about your losses. I've had a few problems lately myself and am learning the hard way.
I have completely stopped buying fish at PETSMART. They have one system that circulates water trough all 100 or so tanks so if one fish has ich or anything else, they all have it. I learned this the hard way. If you must buy form them quarantine is a must.
After infecting my main tanks twice with unquarantined PETSMART fish I set up a ten gallon for a q tank. Recently I bought 2 hillstreams from another LFS and quarantined them for 2 weeks. They looked fine so I transferred them to my new rivertank and 2 days later they came down with ich! I think the stress of moving them brought it on but they were carrying it all along.I lost my favorite little gastomyzon already and am now treating the tank. So obviously 2 weeks wasn't enough. Next time I'll try 3?
Good luck with your pleco and setting up your new tank!
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