Sudden deaths continue...

[Icewall42]

Hi all... I've lost so many old and new loaches over the past year, that I just don't know what else to do. All of my clowns so far are still okay, but I've lost all of my modestas (a couple were 6-7 years old), all of striatas and skunks, every tiger loach I've gotten, some yoyos.... the list goes on and on. I wake up every couple weeks now to a suddenyl dead fish that was fat and healthy yesterday, and was living fine in the tanks for weeks, months, or years before. Not a mark on any of the bodies (though the horseface had red gills, and one of the modestas, before it died, turned a puffy white color). I've tested chemicals, changed water, I once even emptied the tank, bleached it out, baked the sand in the oven, removed all live plants, and boiled the bogwood... and still to no avail. The fish just keep dying.

I'm at a total loss why this keeps happening. I'm scared now for my 12 year old clown loach that has lived int his tank for about 2 years now. All I can think of is the tank itself is a killer, so now I have to spend $400-500 for a completely new setup, and I leave this week for a vacation that was supposed to be relaxing...

Anyone else have chronic sudden death issues? These fish are dead literally within hours... I don't hardly ever see them sick, and I've treated the tank with so many different medications.

EDIT: All I can think of now is that something is leeching into the tank, from the tank itself.... from the sealant, maybe which is quite decayed, or from something the original owner put in the tank. I'm at such a loss.... new fish die, old fish die, always 2-3 at a time, dead within hours, and I get these death spurts once every couple of months. Someone at the fish tried arguing with me that it was because I'm not letting the tank cycle, but if it was ammonia spikes, the ottos would be dead, and the old ones that died recently would have died a lot earlier in the 2 years this tank has been set up. He argued that me changing about a third to half the water once every 3-4 weeks was too much! But I've had fish die a week or two after a change, or a month after a change, it doesn't matter.

A new tank is all I can think to do I've never had a tank cause this much death in one year, and my practices have not changed an ounce. To top it all off, I have a bunch of these fish in a 30 gallon for one year, the chemicals were way out of balance and so was the ammonia but NOT ONE DIED. What gives? And that tank was lucky if it got changed 2-3 time s a month.

[soul-hugger]

I'm very sorry to hear about the deaths of your loaches
I am prettymuch a beginner myself, so I don't have much to say in the way of disease, except that I'm really not sure what could be the killer. Sometimes starting over can be just as bad as not, because every time you do all the cleaning, you are killing the beneficial bacteria that are essential to the health of your fish. Why they are dying so far apart is a total mystery to me, though someone else may say otherwise. The only alarms that are going off for me is the bleach you used to clean the tank, though I'm certain you rinsed it well enough, and the fish were dying both before and after the bleach. The other is all the medications you say you have used. When using medications, the beneficial bacteria in both the filter bed and gravel are being compromised. You are then stuck in a sort of perpetual new tank syndrome that is hard to beat if you are always medicating. Moving to a new tank may be a good idea, but only if it is cycled properly first. If not, this would more than likely be worse and not better. Also, some medications are not compatible with others, and loaches are VERY sensitive to medications, including copper and even pima and melafix. It is usually recommended that you use only half a dose of most medication in any tank containing loaches. You probably already know all this, but just in case.... Hopefully an expert will come along and see something I haven't seen and be able to help.
I am also going on vacation, and I am just a couple days out of an ich outbreak. I can relate to your concern!
Best of luck in the future!
soul-hugger

[Icewall42]

Thanks for your response... you are correct in assuming that the deaths were occurring before and after the bleach. The tank was well rinsed, and I even had a "test" fish in it for about a week, one that went on to live for a number of months before dying.

All the medications I've had to use were used when I first caught symptoms... I used Furon and Super Sulfa. Once or twice, those cleared up the symptoms and the fish went on to live another month or two. The sudden deaths happen when I am NOT treating the tank for anything, and they occur regardless of when I do a water change. I had one die just a day after, and a few die a couple weeks in, and a few die a month later. I give the tank about 3 weeks to a month to cycle before I clean it again, and sometimes I'm a bit lazy and it goes on a little longer. Yet they still die, most of them with not a mark on their bodies. One modesta turned puffy white, stiff, and died in hours. Others just die flawless. One died with cherry red gills. I've also had 2-3 epidemics in this tank that killed fish but were treatable with meds. Not only are the sudden deaths up, the infections are up as well.

Meanwhile that 30 gets changed with the same water from the same tap, even less frequently, and it has 5 skunks, 2 schisteras, and 3 yoyos in it. Not one death except for two that didn't pass their first week.

[chefkeith]

Have any of the clown loaches been dying also?

[chefkeith]

Anyways, I suspect that the large clowns are killing off the other fish, not physically, but chemically.
It's been discussed before that clown loaches may have chemical defenses. You can read about in this thread-
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=157

I think perhaps your large clowns are releasing toxins because the tank you have is too small for them and the other fish to live happily together.

This would explain why clowns are never getting sick, but other fish are.

[chefkeith]

...... I have quite a bit of experience in keeping Clowns, and through the years, have had to move house with mine numerous times. Once, when I was moving a short distance away (about 12 miles), I bagged the Clowns and other occupants of the tank in mixed bags. That is to say some Clowns were in with Corydoras, some with different tetra species, some with Ancistrus, some with kribs, some with L number plecs, and so on, and then there were also some bags with just Clowns together on their own, and some bags with catfish/tetras etc etc (no loaches). When I got to my new location, the bags that contained just the tetras, catfish etc were fine, as were the Clown loaches on their own. However, in all other mixed bags containing Clown loaches, all the fish except the Clowns were dead or dying. The Clowns were all relatively small at that time, from about 3-5" I would guess, and all seemed in perfect health. There was a kind of mucus substance in some of the bags, which I believe was given off as a stress reaction. I also found this substance last year when we re-homed two large 10.5 and 11.5" Clowns - it was quite visible floating in the polystyrene box we had transported them in. I work in the aquatics trade and would like to think that I can catch/handle fish with minimal stress and I felt I would have made the journey as comfortable as possible for them. Since the first incident, I have always advised any Clown owners who mention that they are moving them, that they bag them separately to other species. I therefore feel that they are capable of giving off some moderately toxic substance that they themselves are immune to.
Hope this is of interest.

Emma

[Icewall42]

That is indeed really strange... I've always ever bagged them separately when moving them, or else they were in a community bucket for the short in-city moves. You're correct, all of the 12 clowns I have are in perfect health and always have been since I got this tank two years ago.

However, all sizes of other loaches are dying. I have a huge 4-5" modesta or two, as well as some smaller loaches, all dead. I've never had such a large clown school. They don't get stressed as far as I know, and while the tank is slighlt yon the small side (working on that) there's quite a lot of room for them and a lot of hiding places. I still think this might be a possibility, but then,t he dead horseface dwelled mostly in the sand. I haven't noticed this whitish substance before, but this idea might be worth researching.

It's the clowns I'm most concerned for, as they are the oldest fish I have (and all of my other oldies except for the khuhli are dead).

I also spoke with my mother and she said because I had taken out all the live plants (the clowns were destroying them!) I might have axed the tank's good bacteria production. Water changes might have actually helped lower bad bacteria, but without the good bacteria, no cycle and whammo. Would that be possible? That a bad bacteria spike might kill large and small loaches, old and young, selectively over the year?

[chefkeith]

The good nitrifying bacteria is not in the water column. The majority of the nitrifying bacteria will be colonizing on the filter media, and the rest of it will be on the gravel, decor, glass, and other solid objects in the tank.

[jwyfk]

Icewall42 , do you currently live in Pennsylvania? We've had some issues with our water quality, including excessively high TDS levels, near Pittsburgh due to natural gas drilling. This web page has several links to articles about our problem:

http://www.uppermon.org/Marcellus_Shale ... Impact.htm

In the past month, the TDS levels from my tap went from a high near 700 ppm to its current reading of under 200 ppm. I wouldn't have known about TDS if chefkeith hadn't asked me what my levels were. It night not be your problem, but I just thought I'd check. I haven't had any deaths, but my fish don't look that great.

[chefkeith]

jwyfk- Your right that this could be a TDS problem as well.

[newshound]

jwyfk- Your right that this could be a TDS problem as well.

but why are the clowns fine, if this is a TDS issue?

[chefkeith]

jwyfk- Your right that this could be a TDS problem as well.

but why are the clowns fine, if this is a TDS issue?

Good point and I'm not sure why the clowns aren't affected.

Icewall- are you still adding salt to the water regularly?

[newshound]

I think what "da chef" wrote is actually the better idea.
I have had the same species of loach (kubs) in a tank for 3yrs and only one has grown much at all. And it has grown!
It is at least 2x the size of the rest.
this tank is over filtered and has a 40%-50% WC weekly.
I think perhaps it isn't a bad idea to use charcoal in a "growing" tank.

but now to the current situation at hand

a large modesta can be a pain in the ass to an even larger clown.
Just like EOS hate loaches larger than themselves.
as mentioned maybe a stressed clown releases toxins
doing longterm poisoning.

[Tinman]

As with all posts this is an opinion but from what I read and remember of the past we have similar water issues. I solved mine by reducing water changes. What works some places does not work in others.


This is what I gathered as most meaningful to resolving your issues.
In many ways A tank is a plant that supports a few fish IMO

IW

Meanwhile that 30 gets changed with the same water from the same tap, even less frequently, and it has 5 skunks, 2 schisteras, and 3 yoyos in it. Not one death except for two that didn't pass their first week.

CK

The good nitrifying bacteria is not in the water column. The majority of the nitrifying bacteria will be colonizing on the filter media, and the rest of it will be on the gravel, decor, glass, and other solid objects in the tank.

IW

I also spoke with my mother and she said because I had taken out all the live plants (the clowns were destroying them!) I might have axed the tank's good bacteria production. Water changes might have actually helped lower bad bacteria, but without the good bacteria,

With this situation

All the medications I've had to use were used when I first caught symptoms... I used Furon and Super Sulfa

You have had problems with your water being hard ,high TDS from the tap I thought. With your large water changes your fish are living in tap water. Slow down on the changes ,let the bacteria grow on the glass beyond the brown stages of the first few months letting your tank grow and age which after your cleanings you are somewhat near I belive.. Less frequent water changes in the neighborhood of 10% a week or so will let your fish live in aquarium water.

The problem on the slime coat is burn from hard water, not fungus IMHO.Age the enviroment they live in and reduce the water inflow to reduce this to non lethal or at least less damaging levels

, your Mom was right, the tank is dead as you bleached, chem'd and stripped it of the plants not letting these elements be your water treatment. I belive if you slow down on the WC's your tank will come back to full bloom


The smell can tell you much also. A healthy tank is very fresh smelling.Whiff both to check for a difference....

Just my opinion, TM