Ich dose question (the follow up doses)

[Holdstrong]

Lost 2 Rasboras today. I saw no visible signs of Ich on either. Wouldnt suprise me if the meds and water changes stressed them into this.

I changed up ich meds from Rid Ich+ to Ich Attack (herbal organic).

The loaches 'seem' to have gained some energy. But so hard to tell.

Went out an bought a UV sterilizer to help the effort. But I got the 9w from petsmart, and I think I probably needed the 24w. Anyway...

Mr Loach with the 1 ich spot still has it. Flashing along with it.

One other disturbing sign is that one of the other loaches now has what I am calling popeye. But I am calling it that only because I have no idea what other "eye" diseases there are. It doesn't look like the popeye pics I see online. It looks like, excuse the graphic description, a pimple on his eye. Almost like his eye is a nipple, with a white spot in the middle. It is bulging, slightly. He seems normal otherwise.

Have ordered a TDS meter as well, since all other water params are still perfect.

[Diana]

http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/fish_d ... /eyes.html

here is a list of possible eye problems.
Not included are parasites that may infest the eye. You might do a search in that direction if none of these sound like what is going on.

[Holdstrong]

Thanks Diana.

I feel like I am in wait and see mode (no pun intended) with the eye. I can't imagine adding yet more meds to the tank.

It almost looks like he has an ich spot on his eye... like a small grain of white sand got stuck in there. Maybe it is a fluke, maybe the white spot on my loach isn't ich...

Man, beats me at this point.

I gotta tell ya, this was a new tank with mostly new fish. So I didn't quarantine anyone. I figured the tank itself is the quarantine in this situation... but I guess this drives home the reason to quarantine in the future once (if) I get this tank established. If this was an established tank of several years and I had this happened I would be banging my head on the keyboard right now. What bums me slightly is that we drive a solid hour to get to this particular fish store, and it is considered the best in the Boston area... yet this is the second time in 4 years I've brought home fish from them that were clearly carrying something nasty. Lengthy quarantines full of prophylactic meds are in my future I suppose.

[BotiaMaximus]

I think it is entirely possible for there to be an Ich spot directly on the eye.

Sounds unpleasant

It was in one of the articles on chefkeith's homepage or in one of the ones from Kordon on the multiple strains of Ich.

[chefkeith]

How did you get all the Rid Ich+ out of the tank?

[Holdstrong]

Here is how my last 4 days look:

I skipped a day of Rid Ich
Did a 40% change and dosed with Ich Attack
Did a 20% change and dosed with Ich Attack
Did a 20% change and dosed with Ich Attack

I imagine that didnt come close to getting rid of all of the Rid Ich but I was getting the impression that this stuff didnt stick around long (at least not in active state, thus the daily doses at full tank strength) and that it wouldnt interfere with the Ich Attack organic.

Probably a bad assumptions. I imagine I should have carboned a couple of days and slowly removed the Rid Ich via changes? Emotionally it is hard to skip days and take things slow when you know the fish are in trouble. Instinct to help the fish NOW is almost counter productive in that case I suppose.

[chefkeith]

Holdstrong- Can you give some details about the water parameters?

I was curious what the water parameters may be, so I looked up some Boston water reports from-
http://www.mwra.com/monthly/wqupdate/qual3wq.htm

There are 2 reservoirs in the system, in which the Quabbin feeds the Wachusett Reservoir.


The Quabbin Reservoir
TDS - 26 to 45 ppm
Alkanity (KH)- 3 ppm
Hardness (GH)- 8 ppm
pH - 6.8 -7.1

The Wachusett Reservoir
TDS - 105 -124
Alkanity (KH)- 42 ppm
Hardness (GH)- 16 ppm
pH - 9.3 - 9.6

What concerns me is that at the Wachusett plant they buffer the water to raise the pH to at least 9.3. If this is your source water, I imagine that water eventually loses some of it's buffering capacity while it's in your tank and the pH lowers quite a bit. In this case, water changes may cause large pH swings.

If your water is from the Quabbin Reservoir, then the tap water will need more minerials added to raise the alkanilty and hardness.

You'll probably have to add some hardness to the water either way if this is where your water comes from.

[chefkeith]

I imagine I should have carboned a couple of days and slowly removed the Rid Ich via changes? Emotionally it is hard to skip days and take things slow when you know the fish are in trouble. Instinct to help the fish NOW is almost counter productive in that case I suppose.

I know what you mean. I'm a train wreck when something unusual is going on in my tanks. We'll figure out a coarse of action. Just need to know the water parameters. Just the KH, GH, and PH for now. Out of the tap and in the tank.

[Holdstrong]

Chef,

This potentially explains the last big tank blow up I had. At the time we blamed it on an "unexplained" ph crash. We were convinced it was due to either driftwood, Amquel, the platy population explosion we experienced that summer... or some combination of the 3.

But what it probably was was the buffer wearing off from the tap's treatment at the water plant. Never thought this info would be available, thanks for finding it.

For example, here are some notes I wrote down from that previous incident:

Our KH and GH both tested out around 4 - which according to the chart they include means we have "very soft" water.

TAP:

1. Wardley: N/A (no high range test)

2. Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc - Freshwater master kit: High Range Test pinned at the top (8.5)

3. Red Sea - Fresh Lab Deluxe: High Range Test pinned at the top (8.5)

TANK:

1. Wardley - Senior Deluxe pH test Kit: 6.8 to 7.0

2. Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc - Freshwater master kit: High Range Test is pinned at the bottom (7.4). Mid Range Test measures at 6.6

3. Red Sea - Fresh Lab Deluxe: High Range is pinned at the bottom (7.4), Mid Range is 7.0 to 7.2

we left a bucket of water out for over 24 hours... its PH didn't budge. Pinned at the top of the chart. I'm not sure why the tanks, including the new one we just set up are sitting around 6.5, but if the water in there is going from 8.5+ during water changes to 6.5 I imagine that can't be good.

The tank referenced in those quotes is not the current tank. But I think the info you dug up about the reservoirs in this area lines up with my last disaster. Whatcha think?

I will retest and repost info for the current tank/tap soon.

[Holdstrong]

I struck out finding a test kit at local shops that include KH/GH

All they seem to have are the strips, those funky little card type notifier things you are supposed to suction cup and leave in the tank (do those really work?), and the kit I current have... which is the API drop bottle kit that only includes PH, High Range PH, and the 3 Ns

Since I will have to grab one online I figured I would ask you experienced folk if there is one type of kit you recommend over the others.

[chefkeith]

Aquarium Pharmacuiticals KH and GH kits are good.

[Diana]

ditto
AP sells both in one box, or you can get each separately.

Local water conditions vary here, too, but not as much as yours seems to!

Probably a good idea to test your water with each water change.

http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ct ... bontestlab

[Holdstrong]

Found the API kit, here are the initial tests:

TAP:
PH: 8.8+ (pinned on high range test)
GH: 3 drops, 53.7ppm
KH: 3 drops, 53.7ppm

TANK:
PH: 7.2
GH: 3 drops, 53.7ppm
KH: 3 drops, 53.7ppm

The tank water has been heavily changed over the last 2+ weeks.

I will be leaving a bucket of tap water out so I can test it at different time intervals.

Update on Ich:

My one loach still has his one spot, and the other loach still has his eye problem, but otherwise I still dont see anything else in that tank.

The smaller tank where I moved the Cardinals and Rasboras is in outbreak mode. They all seem to have specks. As I talked this over with the fish store guy (at the fish store that everyone in this area says is the "best") he says to me... "Rid Ich is crap, Ich Attack is even worse... we sell it, but would never use it ourselves." He then grabs a small bottle of something called Ich Cure from Aquacontrol and says this is how "all professionals, including them, treat their tanks". He was a bit over the top and gave the impression that he thought he knew more than he really did.

But, I grabbed some of it in case I reach "last resort" mode. For now I plan on keeping on with the Ich Attack.

[plaalye]

Hey Holdstrong. I had a similar problem a few months back with some cardinal tetras. It definitely, at least in my mind, was not ich. What it was I don't know? It only affected my cardinals and one marginatus pencilfish, Characins. I treated with rid-ich(which I really like for ich), kanaplex, and Furan. I couldn't figure out whether it was parasitic or bacterial. Pulled my hair out for 2 or 3 weeks, maybe more. I finally bought the cheap UV at petsmart and after about 2 weeks of running it cleared up. I took the UV out and within a week another cardinal had symptoms again. I reinstalled the UV and ran for 2 more weeks and all is well so far. This was in a 20 gal tank with cories, khulis, threadfin rainbows, parotocinclus,and otos. Nothing was affected but the characins. In the end I lost 5 card and one pencilfish. Here's a few bad pics but the best I could do.



Since I had this problem I have acquired and used flubendazole for internal parasites. Dr. Charles Harrison, who I ordered the med from, has also used it to kill ich, velvet, flukes, etc. etc. I didn't have flubendazole at the time of my outbreak but It may be worth a try for your problem. It doesn't seem to harm anything in the tank except for snails. I'm trying to fine a link to his article but can't find it at the moment. You can contact Charles at csharrison@inkmaker.net

Hope you get this cleared up and figure out your water chemistry problems! Between Diana and Chef Keith I'm sure you'll get it figured out!

[plaalye]

Here's the link.
http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/FlubendazoleTreatment.pdf