Loaches Online Forum

Hi guys... new here.

I've had two clown loaches for just under 18 months. They've grown in size, and are healthy, but they both have a large black circle on/near their abdomen (well centre of their body.) It appears to be the same colour as their stripes. The spot is only on one side, and the spot has been growing slowly in size over the last six or so months since it first appeared.

Any information would be appreciated.

Kind regards, Kathy

That's natural. You have a side spot variation.

Hi Kathy,

Welcome to Loaches Online.

It does sound like a pigment spot, have a look at this article to compare with what you are seeing on your loach: http://www.loaches.com/articles/clown-l ... variations

Emma

Thanks.

The link was very informative, and accurately describes the markings I referred to.

Kind regards, Kathy

Hybrid
http://www.loaches.com/articles/images/ ... mage_small
It too
http://www.loaches.com/species-index/ph ... age_medium

In the first case the mum the Clown, in second Yo-Yo Hybrid from a hybrid With the clown + Syncrossus

Are unsightly pigment spots a nuisance on your loaches?

Just genetically modify it! Breed the blemishes away!

Meh.

Mark in Vancouver wrote:Are unsightly pigment spots a nuisance on your loaches?

Just genetically modify it! Breed the blemishes away!

Meh.

It only second law of genetics (Mendel, Gregor Johann)

I like the idea of hybrids, Oleg. I think some cats and dogs and other animals have turned out (over a very long time) some good variations. I also grow plants, and I understand the concept of cross-breeding quite well. There are some cultivars that are outstanding.

That said, inviting fish to do this cross breeding is different from inducing it. I am sorry that I cannot make my meaning clear in Russian, and I hope you understand what I mean.

In cats and dogs and plants, hybrids are arrived at by favouring traits of certain families within a species. When you get into crossing species, you are f+ing with nature, IMO. It is neither called for or practical. For every monster or dead animal you turn out, maybe one good result is born. Maybe.

When you begin to cross animals across species, you are tampering with a good thing. It is as though you cannot see beyond what you already have in front of you.

It's sad and disgusting, IMO.

If I wanted fish for my cold northern pond, whether in Russia or Canada, I would opt for fish that would do well in the climate. I would NOT experiment to see if I could create a fish that does well.

I don't know you, and I am sorry that we cannot sit down and discuss this face to face. But what you are doing is vile and repugnant to me. You are looking for a "product" while the rest of us are merely looking, with love and awe, at the natural world. I find the whole thing extremely sad.

Again, I don't know you, and I'm not sure what possible reason you have for playing Dr. Moreau. I love these fish for what they are, not for what humans could transform them into one day.

I encourage you to cease your cross-species meddling. There are hundreds of other, more interesting things we need to understand about loaches than how we can modify them to suit our desires.

Everything that I have read about your experiments and the work of others who seek to cross fish species is repulsive to me. It is in extreme conflict with the spirit of understanding these fish as we would like them to be understood.




That's just me talking. I am a moderator, but I finally had to say my bit. I am an author of the Loach book and an earnest educator about loaches. Watching them being modified makes me ill. Sorry if my personal opinion is upsetting to anyone reading this. I just couldn't not say it.

Also, I just want to be clear. I acknowledge that selective breeding has brought to the world some wonders... The Pug, the winter kale, etc... It is not selective breeding that bothers me.

Genetically modified food is something I, personally, do not endorse and would not buy or eat. Genetically modified fish, IMO, do not belong in the aquarium trade.

Further clarity: What I said above is my opinion, and not necessarily the opinion of the other moderators or server of Loaches On-Line. It is also not the shared opinion of the authors of Loaches, the book.

It just needed to be said.

If news arises of successful cross breeding between species of loaches, I hope Oleg will report it here. All news related to loaches is important to us. The mangling of science and enthusiasm for vivisection remains an ugly perimeter of the hobby.

Once more, this is my opinion alone.

"Best of luck."

You need not worry about how people will interpret your opinions, Mark. You presented your thoughts and I am sure people will be able to understand better when more views are shared. I actually don't agree with crossing every different species myself. I have to say that I actually find it revolting to see fish with appearances I will never forgive myself once I see them.

Mark, i am glad you said your piece. you expressed it better than i could have done. i think you are right. it is completely needless and selfish on the part of short sighted humans. i like ordinary goldfish, with normal eyes and fins. the monsters people have created are often deformed and cannot function properly. i find that disgusting. cross breeding loaches takes that one step further. what monsters will people create mixing species? there are good reasons why fish are the way they are. think of the consequences of "clown loaches" in streams after irresponsible release in cold climates. we meddle with biodiversity too much already, with out adding man made mixtures to the problems




Sorry Kathy. if you havent already, read this thread, and our rant might make more sense to you. http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=12573

welcome along.

oliv wrote:Hybrid
http://www.loaches.com/articles/images/ ... mage_small
It too
http://www.loaches.com/species-index/ph ... age_medium

In the first case the mum the Clown, in second Yo-Yo Hybrid from a hybrid With the clown + Syncrossus

The fish in the first picture is mine, it is in my tank right now. It is not a hybrid. It is 100% wild caught. I do not appreciate you insinuating that this fish has been interfered with. Mother nature throws up variations in clown loach markings all the time - naturally - just as she does with all other species on this planet.

Emma

I still wonder where the proof is that the second pic is a cross of a clown and a syncrossus. That pic clearly shows a Botia histrionica, not a cross of anything at all.

Mark you have said everything that needs to be said about the whole man-made hybrid issue. My thoughts echo yours very , very closely.

I would rather these people spend their time and resources into breeding fish so that both the fishkeeping trade can be supplemented and the people who are harvesting the fish in the wild can replenish stock , especially where fish are scarce or in danger of habitat loss /overfishing etc.
I really do not see a reason why these people need to mess around with things that are unnecessary and unneeded.

I know this thread has got a little off topic but seeing as the issue has created so much press (good and/or bad) on here and other sites and forums and as a whole is becoming more prominant as these breeders continue to churn out these fish I had to have my say.
There is no need to create fish , whether for the hobby or any other reason.
Refining and cross-selection of a single species is fine (within reason of course) but the people crossing these fish have no idea of what they are creating. They could easily be repressing or releasing genetic code that could be potentially damaging to the fish in question , other fish or in an extreme case could even affect ourselves in some way.

In my opinion and no real offense meant but what these people who are crossing species unnaturally are doing is no different from the people who produce forms of bacteria and virus for chemical warfare. Although the motives are different the end result is unwanted and potentially dangerous.