Loaches Online Forum

Hey all;
It appears that I only post when I have problems but I still don't feel experienced enough to offer advice.
I need help identifying/curing something that is killing my new clowns. (sorry for the long message, but I want to be as detailed as possible)

QUESTIONS
What is wrong with the loaches?
Could the wood, or the plants in the tank, have brought parasites?
Could the snails that came with the plants have brought parasites?

MY WATER PARAMETERS
0 nitrite, <10ppm nitrate, 0 ammonia, 7.0 pH, 4gH, 7kH, 82 degrees F

FISH SYMPTOMS AND TIMELINE
--Friday (9/5)--
I am currently quarantining clown loaches. I had planned to purchase from Franks, but the local LFS had some good-sized clowns and I decided to take a chance and purchase six.
They are two inches long, and all appeared healthy when purchased.
--Monday--
one of them started swimming lethargically, and clamping its fins. No white spots or flashing, but I thought it might be the early signs of ich.
I treated with a half dose of RidIch and removed carbon from filter.
--Tuesday--
that loach died, after settling to the bottom and lying on his belly. I did a 20% water change.
--Wednesday--
a second loach started presenting the same symptoms. I did a 50% water change and treated with a half dose of Jungle Parasite Clear tablets, assuming that its some sort of internal parasite, and not ich.
--Thursday--
the second loach died the same way.
--Friday--
a third loach started presenting symptoms and died within the day. I did a 20% water change and treated with the Parasite Clear again (per instructions).
--Saturday--
the third loach died.
--On Sunday, I did a 20% water change and replaced carbon because the Parasite Clear instructions reccommend only two doses.
The remaining three loaches appeared fine until yesterday, when two more began clamping their fins. Now, those two are swimming lethargically.
There are no other symptoms. No white spots, no fast breathing, no gasping at surface for air, no scrathing on objects, no golden haze on body, no frayed fins, no stringy feces (they're not even eating), no visible worms, no mucus or extra slime.

OTHER STUFF IN TANK
I have a piece of African root wood in the tank to give them some shelter (but I can still view the loaches at all times). I soaked the wood in hot water for one week before putting it in tank (before the fish were put in)

I also have a small amount of java fern and hornwart in the tank to give them a sense of shelter. I put the plants in after the fish were put in. The plants came from a tank that contained no fish at the LFS. I did not do any treatment to the plants before putting them in the tank. Snails appeared in the tank and the loaches ate them.
The LFS claims to have lost none of their loaches, and all appear fine to me.
Thanks!

This sounds rather mysterious. I don't know if I can help, but I'll try. I'll need to fish for more clues though.

Are the fish dying at night or during the day?
How many plants do you have?
How big is the driftwood?
Can you show us a picture of the aquarium?
What is the history of the q-tank and the filters?
Is it a new tank?
Is there substrate in the tank?
Are there any rocks or ornaments in the tank?
If so what kind, how old?
What kind of filter?
How much surface agitation is there?
Was the filter well cycled?
What kind of carbon are you using? Is it in a cartridge?
What kind of water dechlor are you using?
Did the LFS put any salt or other medications in their water?

1. Fish appear to be dying during the night. The first two died in the evening and the third died at some time during the night.
2. I have two pieces of java fern (about five inches long each, stuck in holes in the driftwood). I have two small bundles of hornwart (about seven inches long each).
3. The driftwood is about a foot long
4. Don't have a working digital camera or scanner for pics (sorry)
5. Tank is new, holds 50 gal. (Fish will be homed permanently in a 72 gal tank) Tank was cleaned out, filled, and I did a fish-less cycle with regular ammonia from the store. Filters are HOBs, new.
6. Aquarium sand and gravel as substrate
7. No other rocks or ornaments in tank
8. I have the water level a couple inches from top, filter water splashing on surface, plus a 130gal per hour powerhead and a 250 gal per hour powerhead at surface, both new.
9. I think the filters were well-cycled. I did a fish-less cycle per Diana's instructions (getting ammonia readings to 5ppm and waiting for nitrites to appear, etc.)
10. I'm using the pre-packaged carbon filter cartriges made for the filters.
11. I used tap water to fill the tank half way at first (and used stress coat as a dechlorinator) but my tap water is very hard and has a pH over 8, so the other half of the tank was filled with distilled water. Water changes have been done with distilled water.
12. I did not ask about LFS salt or medications.

Thanks!!!

i had something similar when i put a well-boiled/soaked terra-cotta pot in the tank- killed all bottom feeders but for one pleco over a day and a half. Never again.
I'd blame your wood, or at least start there. A lot of (tropical) woods hold an assortment of nasty toxins.
New tank: home-made? The anti-mildew agents in some silicone calks are very bad for fish.
I may be reaching.....
A

The two sick loaches that I have now have hung on longer after developing symptoms than the other three did and I just noticed that one of them is now starting to stay in one place at the bottom of the tank, just like the others did before they died. I've just stared at him for about ten minutes, trying to see everything I can. The front of his head looks a little pink, and his mouth looks hard, almost as if he can't move it. His gills look hard as well. I don't know how else to describe it. He is breathing quickly, so I wonder if this is a symptom that develops right before death; I didn't notice it in the other three.

I removed the wood. Should I remove the plants? I hate to take all their shelter away.
Should I try treating with any medicine again?

Did you add minerals to the distilled water before adding it to the tank water? Otherwise you can cause osmotic shock.

You need to keep water chemistry consistent.

With very hard tap water that is the source of minerals; the Distilled water is intended to dilute the GH and KH of the very hard tap water.

If the store had the Loaches in tap water that matches your tap water (very hard), and they do not soften their water then the Loaches may have some osmotic shock going on. If the store water is harder than your water then it highly likely has more minerals and other things in it, referred to as Total Dissolved Solids.
When you move fish to water with lower TDS they need time to adjust, and such a move can be dangerous to them, unless the TDS is lowered slowly.

Another thing that might be the cause is the filters.
They are new and probably not fully mature yet. They can probably handle small amounts of ammonia, but maybe they can't handle all the ammonia/nitrites if they are spiking at night when the lights are turned off.
When the lights are on, plants/ algae will help use up any ammonia/nitrites.
You can use a water conditioner like Prime to detoxify them and that might help solve this potential problem.

I've had the lights off most of the time, plus I've monitored the nitrites and ammonia daily and have 0 readings each time.
However, I have not added minerals to the distilled water. When I acclimated the fish to my tank, everything matched but the TDS. The LFS had a TDS reading of @250, while mine was @170. Could that difference have caused osmotic shock?
I just tested mine again and it is at 174
Is there a way to reverse osmotic shock?

Should I (in future) keep the loaches in the conditions of the tap here? If not, how much time is required when bringing water chemistry to more desired conditions to avoid osmotic shock?
Thanks for all the continued help.

What I'm trying to say about the filters is that Ammonia/Nitrites might spike sometime and then clear up in a few hours before it is tested.

Light doesn't have everything to do with it. It mostly depends on when and how much you feed the fish.

Is the tanks current kH = 7 and gH =4?
What are the tap water parameters? kh, gh, and TDS?

With osmotic shock, once the damage is done it can't be reversed.
Probably the big water change done the most damage.

If you started off with a 170 TDS (which is mainly from the kH/gH), then most of the TDS now is probably from medications and anything else that was added.

A healthy fish could probably stand all the TDS changes, but new fish that are stressed will just get weaker and be much more vulnerable to the possible ammonia toxicity or nitrite poisoning.
That's my guess, unless this is parasitic also.

Jamie wrote: The LFS had a TDS reading of @250, while mine was @170. Could that difference have caused osmotic shock?

If you matched the kH and gH, then it shouldn't of mattered too much if the fish were perfectly healthy. It might of stressed a weak fish though.

Jamie wrote:Is there a way to reverse osmotic shock?

If the damage was already done, then no.

Jamie wrote:Should I (in future) keep the loaches in the conditions of the tap here? If not, how much time is required when bringing water chemistry to more desired conditions to avoid osmotic shock?

You can probably use tap water if it's not too hard or polluted. If it's hard, most people just mix distilled water and tap water together, then add it to their tanks. Doing it that way is perfectly safe if the parameters match.
If changes are to made to the chemistry of the water while the fish are in it, then the changes need to be done very slow.

i am not sure if this would cause the damage to your fish, but i would always wash plants before putting them in a tank. they are sometimes treated to kill snails

sorry about your problems, you must be having a miserable time of it.

I would set up a Q-tank that matches your local store's water and change it very slowly (like during the month or so the fish are in quarantine) to make the change you are describing. A little softer with each water change, rather than all at once.

Thanks,
I lost my fourth loach sometime during the night.

Chefkeith; About my tap water, gH is 14 degrees and kH is 10. pH is 8. TDS is measuring 185. Typically, how long does it take for filters to become fully mature, thus avoiding nitrite and ammonia spikes?

Helen; How do you wash the plants? I don't think these were treated with snail killer, because soon after I put them in the tank, there were snails everywhere and when I mentioned it to the pet store, they said that was typical.

Could plants or snails carry disease? Is there a way to sanitize plants without killing the plants?

Thanks again for all the help. I will use a smaller q-tank next time, and will change the water parameters over a longer period of time.
I still have one loach not showing any symptoms.

Jamie wrote: Chefkeith; About my tap water, gH is 14 degrees and kH is 10. pH is 8. TDS is measuring 185. Typically, how long does it take for filters to become fully mature, thus avoiding nitrite and ammonia spikes?

The spikes also depend on how much biological media is in the filter and how much water is flowing through it.

It usually takes 3-4 weeks to cycle a filter, but it may take 3 months before it is mature. That is when several generations of the bacterial colonies have passed and new generations are growing on top of the old.