Loaches Online Forum

Hello all

I had a well established 80 gal tank for 10 years with most loaches 5 to 7 years old, the clowns younger after the loss of my 4 original clowns some time ago for reasons unknown but too long ago to be related I would imagine:

4 Orange Finned Loaches
2 Zebra Loches
3 Yo Yo Loaches
6 Clown loaches
3 Skunk Loaches
6 Khuli Loaches
3 Chain Loaches

A very settled and happy tank, 2 of the clowns were new and small and from one of my trusted shops but one seemed to lose weight after I got him home and developed a thin ‘knife back’ but lived happily for quite some time. I treated the tank for internal bacteria and treated it for 2 weeks with melafix. I introduced one further clown and a new angel fish several months from a reputable but not one of my regular shops (there in probably lies my fatal error) later and treated with melafix again.

A while later, and most suddenly, over about 4 days I found every single loach in the tank dead, one I found gasping for breath pale and bloated before it too died.

The 5 Angel Fish, Bristle noses and sail fin plec are all fine and healthy, even the black angel fish – even though I have often found that black angel fish are often quite weak and susceptible to things.

There has been no obvious change in tank temperature or conditions over the last 5 – 7 years and as you can all appreciate with the character of these fish and the time I had them this is most upsetting.

I have toyed with the idea of getting rid of the tank due to this upset but I find myself missing the guys!

My question is if is internal parasites / bacteria which it would seem to be from the pattern of death, indications and the fact that loaches are more susceptible to it how should I prepare the tank for new loaches?

I have bought an internal bacteria treatment and thought that following some extensive water changes and the washing out of each filter separately a week or two apart in clean non aquarium water (the bacteria remaining live in the other filters) I could treat the tank but will that be enough?

Thanks for any helpful advice
Tam

Hi Tam, welcome to the forum, Im sorry that you have had some bad luck with your loaches.

I have a few questions if you could answer them, it would be most helpful in determining what has happened.

Do you have any readings for your water parameters (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate).

Melafix is not really a treatment for internal bacterial problems, its ideal for external cuts.

Do you quarantine your new arrivals? Ideally you should have a little seperate tank (5-10g), that you house new fish in for 3-4 weeks before adding to your established aquarium. During this time you should be treating for internal parasites (theres a number of good treatments available), some suggest to treat for ich, as even if fish are showing no visible signs, ich could still be in the gills, hidden from eye etc...


You also mentioned that ' you wash out each filter separately a week or two apart in clean non aquarium water'

Do you mean that you take one filter one week, rinse it in water, and then the other week/two weeks do the same to the other? Chlorine in regular tap water will kill off your beneficial bacteria in your filter. It can take months for a filter to become established-killing off this bacteria can cause ammonia spikes, not a good thing for your fish. I would advise you to only rinse your filter sponges/media in aquarium water from now on.


Anyhow to answer your original question, I would quarantine your new loaches away from your main tank, treat them for internal parasites (were are you located-it will make it easier to recommend treatments available to you), if possible an antibiotic after the parasite treatments. Even if you get the parasite problem cleared up in loaches, often the damage caused and stress they went through can leave them more open to infection-a good antibiotic after all the nasties are removed will clear that up. It would also be profitable to treat for ich after all the above is done as so not to infect your main tank if the loaches are carrying it. Once that is all done and they are eating well etc, you should be able to add them to your aquarium without any worries for their health


How long ago did your loaches pass away? As for the tank, it might be best to treat it for bacterial infections, just incase there is something there. Im sure others will be along to recommend a good treatment-all the ones I have used are useless so no point in recommending them to you!


Ashleigh

I'm very sorry to hear about the death of your loaches. I wish I had some good advice, but I am new at this, so I'll keep silent on that. Just read your story and thought it was sad. I will say one thing though. Try not to let your disappointment keep you from participating in and enjoying a hobby you obviously loved for many years. Also, if you kept everyone alive and happy without disease for that long, there are probably a lot of things you are doing right. Good luck with your future endeavours-soul-hugger.

if your worried about ya water stick a UV on seems to knock the hell outta bad water thats for sure, been told it can kill alot of stuff out the water (not the fish) like white spot so defo could be worth a look

one seemed to lose weight after I got him home and developed a thin ‘knife back’ but lived happily for quite some time. I treated the tank for internal bacteria and treated it for 2 weeks with melafix. I introduced one further clown and a new angel fish

These possible culprits may have introduced Mycobacteriosis or camallanus worm to your tank. The loaches, as bottom feeders can pick up infections pretty easily. Mycobacteriosis can't be treated but camallanus worms can. Have you seen any evidence of red thin strings out of the anus of any of your fish.

The reason I mention camallanus worms as a possibility is because on the Angelfish forum, several people have mentioned that they have become common in store bought Angelfish lately. Some recommend treating for them even without symptoms. Some on the loach forum also treat new loaches before adding to their main tanks.

sorry to hear your very sad news

Knowing what went wrong is the first step in dealing with it. If it was a toxin in the tank, or a water quality issue, then sterilizing the tank is not required. You will want to remove any toxin, for example running a few cups of activated carbon in the filter will remove many possible toxins, especially combined with several large water changes.
One possible idea: Loaches are more sensitive than many other fish about oxygen levels in the tank. Could the O2 level have dropped, perhaps due to poor water circulation or some other cause?

If you are still sure that there is a disease or parasite at the bottom of this, and want to kill whatever it is,and be sure it cannot come back here are a few ideas.

To sterilize a tank, just in case something is lingering you need to sterilize and not re-contaminate. The way you want to alternate cleaning the filters is NOT a way to sterilize the tank. Whatever is in there will move right back into the first sterilized filter and live there when you remove the other filter for treatment.

If you want to sterilize everything here are some basics:

1) Remove fish to as many tanks as needed:
Depending on the treatment you are planning some fish may not handle one certain medication, but are tolerant of another. So, separate the fish according to which treatment they will handle. You are likely going to use medication that would kill any nitrifying bacteria, so plan on doing enough water changes to keep the ammonia as close to 0 ppm as possible. Do not put too many fish in any one tank. Perhaps 5" of small fish in a 10 gallon, and even then the ammonia will build up fast. Medicate with at least 3 rounds each of two different parasite medications, and 2 rounds of antibiotics. Levamisole is a good parasite med, but will not kill all parasites, so do another round of treatments with something else.
Kanamycin is an actual antibiotic, meaning it really kills bacteria. If you can get or make antibiotic food this is the best way to treat. Compare to Melafix and Pimafix that simply slow the growth of bacteria and fungi that may be on the outside of the fish.

2) Throw away plants. There is no sure way of sterilizing them without killing them. If half measures are OK, (meaning whatever disease might survive) then treat the plants with potassium permanganate OR bleach and then grow them in a separate tank with no fish for at least a month. This may break the cycle of whatever parasites or disease might be lingering. Without a host, most parasites or diseases will not survive.

3) Remove and sterilize all equipment. Throw away filter media. There are too many holes and places that may not get properly treated to risk saving it. You could try boiling it, but this will kill the nitrifying bacteria anyway, so I would just start with all new media. Lava rock, and similar material is also a poor risk, though you can heat it to kill microorganisms (boil or bake lava rock). You sure cannot keep nitrifying bacteria alive while killing other bacteria or parasites.

4) Remove and sterilize all substrate, decorative rocks, driftwood and so on. Depending on treatment some of these things may not be worth saving. Heat treatment is probably better for driftwood and substrate.

5) Reassemble it all, using Dr Tim's One and Only or Tetra Safe Start to recolonize the filters.

Materials and methods to sterilize all these things:
DO MORE RESEARCH BEFORE TRYING ANY OF THESE.
WEAR GLOVES AND EYE PROTECTION.

If you knew what disease or parasite you are dealing with then these suggestions would be specific to that problem. However...

Strong salt solution: Will kill many parasites, and will rinse clean very easily. The tiny remnant if it is not well cleaned will not hurt the fish. Warm some water on the stove and stir in as much salt (sodium chloride) as the water will hold. Allow the water to cool until it is comfortable to touch. (75*F to 90*F is safe for all the stuff in the aquarium) then soak everything, and wash the tank out several times. If this is an acrylic tank be very sure the salt is fully dissolved. If it is a glass tank then you can actually use dry salt as an abrasive to scrub the glass clean, while washing it with very salty water.

Bleach: Will kill all sorts of bacteria. 20 parts water: 1 part bleach is safe for some very durable plants for a 30 second dip, and have a bucket with double dose of dechlor ready to rinse them in. Aquarium equipment can be cleaned with a stronger solution, and lots of rinsing, followed by a soak-rinse-soak in water with a double dose of dechlor. If you can still smell chlorine the repeat soaking and rinsing with more dechlorinator in the water. Will not kill mycobacteriosis.

Rubbing Alcohol: Will kill mycobacteriosis. I think 70% is the one available in the USA. Do not dilute it. Removing it from the tank and equipment might be a bit of a problem. Try rinsing well, then exposing it to the sun to evaporate whatever rubbing alcohol is left.

Potassium permanganate: do more research! It reacts with organic matter so clean the gravel or sand really well before using this, then rinse REALLY well. Hydrogen peroxide will deactivate the potassium permanganate, then you still need to rinse the stuff away.

Hydrogen peroxide is one of the safer ones in case there is a little tiny bit left after rinsing. Sunlight will break down the H2O2.

Other liquid disinfectants and similar treatments: I am leery about using these on a porous material like driftwood. The driftwood might soak up the stuff, then release it into the tank. Salt water soak might be OK, especially if you then soak the wood in several changes of water after.

Heat: Driftwood can be baked in the oven. Put it in wet. As it bakes the water turns to steam and kills all sorts of things. Bake it until it is dry. You will then need to boil it to make it soak up water, or at least soak it for quite a while. Most other aquarium things will not handle heat, for example plastic plants are not likely to survive a dishwasher when the heated dry comes on.
Gravel or sand could be boiled or baked, but do this outside, such as on a bar-b-que. You do not want the smell in the house.
There is another way to heat treat things. It is called solarization. It means to use solar energy to heat the material. Think of a car on a hot day. You will need to build a box with a glass lid big enough for whatever you want to treat. Put the object(s) in the box while they are wet and close the lid. If the sun shines directly into the box all day it can get hot enough to cook in there, and the steam generated will kill a lot of things. The better insulated the box is the better it works. Mildly warm is not going to do the job. If you opened the box and could still touch the stuff inside this is not hot enough. This is a good way to handle the substrate. I learned about this method to treat soil used for starting vegetable seeds.

Just in case you want to investigate mycobacteriosis here are a couple of links. This problem does not sound like it, though. Mycobacteriosis in more often a slow killer, or hiding in the background weakening the fish which often die of something else that they were too weak to fight off. It is odd that you had so many deaths all at one time, and limited to Loaches. Sounds more like a disease or a toxin in the tank.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/foru ... -fish.html

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM055

This is. One of the most thorough responses I've ever seen, and so much info. I had a bit of a nerdgasm, actually. I'm so glad to see a forum full of very informed people!

Thanks for the most helpful replies.

I was hoping that I could take action without breaking up the tank but logically and as I feared it would seem that the only sure way to keep any new arrivals healthy is to effectively start the tank again by cleaning and treating everything in it, even then I cannot be sure exactly what it was that caused it and if I will get rid of it. I really don’t want to get rid of the tank but I do not want to subject loaches to stress and death so I may have to.

I will try and answer the questions put to me to see if what it was can be narrowed down.

The air circulation was constant as was the temperature.

I will do a water test when I get home to see what the levels are now – I use a visual water test (colour change sticks). I do not test every week - after many years of little change I tend to test if I am concerned there is an issue, eg if fish start flashing or if I add new things to the tank like driftwood.

I am in UK (and as such fish treatments, etc can be a lot more basic and chemicals harder to get hold of) and solar treating the drift wood is right out as we have not seen a warm sun for what seems like years so I will have to oven it!

I use melafix reduce stress when I am medicating the fish and when I have new arrivals for stress and to treat any bumps and scrapes that may have occurred during transport.

I do not currently quarantine new arrivals but my usual shop has a quarantine process. My fatal mistake I believe was buying a loach in a reputable shop but not one I usually use because it had been left alone in the tank because I am a sucker and hate to see them not in a group! Ideally I would love and should have a second running quarantine tank but until the recent additions I rarely buy new fish and have a small house so until now I have not had one running. I do have a small tank in the loft however and will probably fire that up as a quarantine tank if I do decide to repopulate the tank.

To clarify – the filter idea was a proposal not what I currently do. I have 2 internal filters and an external filter which are cleaned in aquarium water and a 3rd internal filter which is just there to provide air flow which is cleaned in clean water regularly when the air flow drops. I do not use an under gravel filter. I was wondering if cleaning the filters along with any treatments would help to weaken any bad bacteria, but yes I guess the damage to the good bacteria would not be worth it.

When it comes to toxins the only thing added to the tank recently was the new fish and some time ago some new driftwood which was in another established tank that I had to get rid of due to lack of space. The tank had 2 oscars and a bristlenose in (the bristlenose also moved across) but that was some 3 to 6 months ago.

There are currently no plants in the tank – any I did buy had the roots dug up by the clowns and were stripped of leaves very quickly. I have one plastic plant purely for the fact that the kulies used to like to drape themselves over it like a Khuli Christmas tree

I have an awful lot of driftwood layered upon each other as the loaches liked to have their wooden caves and their own areas.

I did not notice any worms or parasite evidence and all (but the thin one) loaches seemed healthy one moment and gone the next. I have been desperately racking my brain about what occurred that day and the day before – did I put my hands in the tank without washing them and have something on them?, etc.

I had quite recently hovered the gravel but not that day or the day before – I was wondering if perhaps string up the gravel had loosened any nitrate bubbles or some such but the bristlenose and the plec who are also bottom dwellers are unaffected.

About 5 days before the loaches went I lost a 10 year old upsidown catfish which I had put down to old age.