Loaches Online Forum

I've stumped 7 "experts" with this one, so i hope you guys can help.

About 3 months ago, i noticed My one Clown Loach (family of 6 in a 55g) would scrape his body across rocks and other things in the tank, i read about this behavior, and was led to believe that there was ICK in my tank. which i treated. the behavior never really went away, and one point my wife and i noticed what looked like little worms on the side of the tank, almost half a centimeter long. i used pimafix i think, and they went away. 2 months ago, the loach started looking really skinny, and was very lethargic. over a period of 2 months, he got worse and worse, to the point where it looked as though there were pieces of his "skin" falling off and flaking, he had a big chunk missing from the black like above his left eye, and eventually on the rest of his body, it was like he was rotting. he would also "stand on his tail, " then roll backward, eventually correcting himself back to standing on his tail. under instructions from an "expert" i treated the water with melafix for 7 days, and used aquarium salt (which i always do anyway), also raised the tank temperature to 84.

I had to cull him today, simply because he was almost dead when i got home, to little to late i guess.


The other fish seem to be ok, and i'd like to keep it like that that, we do weekly 25% water changes, I use cycle, Aquarium salt, and keep the temp around 80.

Does anyone have any idea what happened? i try to take care of things daily, but sometimes have to much to do, and the tank can be iqnored for a day or 2 sometimes.

Unfortunately all I have are negative comments about the products you use.

Cycle: this is useless. In a properly cycled tank the nitrifying bacteria and other microorganisms reproduce, and do not die off. you do not have to keep adding more. Many years ago when scientists started studying which bacteria were found in aquariums they found some that could be easily bottled (these bacteria entered a dormant stage) so they started marketing these bacteria as the nitrifying bacteria that remove ammonia and nitrite. Unfortunately the ones they found were a short lived group, and there were other species of bacteria that grew and took over. This group of bacteria proved harder to grow in the laboratory in clean enough cultures that they could be identified, but when they were finally isolated they proved harder to handle than the 'wrong' bacteria. The right bacteria (various Nitrospiros spp) do not enter a dormant phase, and are therefore harder to bottle and keep on store shelves.

Anyway, the point is that in a cycled tank you do not need to keep adding bacteria. They cling to the filter media and pretty much everywhere else in the tank, and do not swim in the water very much. Water changes do not remove them. If you clean the filter media with water removed from the tank for a water change the bacteria stay alive and you do not need to add more.
If something happens to kill them, or reduce the population then you should add the right bacteria to re-populate the tank. You are looking for Dr. Tim's One and Only or Tetra Safe Start. All other 'bacteria in a bottle' products have the wrong bacteria. But you do not need them just for ordinary water changes. They are a good way to start a new tank. Use once and that is all is needed.


Next, salt.

You are keeping fresh water fish. Some do not mind a little salt in the water, but most do not need or want salt.
The use of salt originated when it was noticed that fish newly added to the tank did better when salt was added. At first nobody looked into why. When they did they found several things:
One is that when more fish are added to a tank the nitrifying bacteria take a little time to catch up to the new bioload, and one toxin that is present for several days or longer (up to 2 weeks) is nitrite. Nitrite crosses the gills and caused Brown Blood Disease. Salt (actually the chloride) protects the gills and prevents the nitrite from crossing into the blood. Since the nitrifying bacteria eventually do catch up, the salt is only needed when nitrite shows on a water test. 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons is the dose, and keep up the water changes to reduce the nitrite; keep it under 1 ppm.

Other effect of salt: When a fish is under stress they tend to lose some control of their osmoregulatory system. If they were accustomed to water with high Total Dissolved Solids the fish may have a difficult time removing excess fluids from their system when they are put into water with low TDS. Add to this the stress of moving to a new tank, and fish would often die. If the fish keeper added salt (or anything else that is safe for fish and raises the TDS) then the fish had a better chance to live and adjust to the new tank. The salt in the water reduces the fluid gain into the body of the fish. The need for salt is not long term, and is not needed at all if a fish is moved to water that is most similar to the water it came out of.

Another use of salt: Many parasites can be killed by exposing them to water that is significantly higher or lower in TDS than the water they were in. For example, fish (and parasites) in a soft water tank, low mineral content get used to how much water is trying to enter their cells, and working just so hard to get rid of the excess water. Now dip this parasite infested fish in water with a lot of salt (up to as much salt as sea water) and the parasites cannot cope with the different water. Fluid starts leaving their cells, and the parasites die. The fish is also exposed to the high TDS water, but you remove the fish before it is stressed too much. The single celled or very small multi-celled organisms (the parasites) die. The fish lives.
The secret to this cure is not the salt but the CHANGE in levels of salt. From 'No Salt' to 'Lots of Salt' is what kills the parasites.
Keeping salt in the tank all the time does nothing, the parasites adjust to it, and when you want to treat the fish to kill the parasites the CHANGE in salt is not there; there is already salt in the tank.
(The opposite treatment works too: certain marine fish can be dipped in fresh water to kill external parasites)

Next: Melafix and Pimafix. I used to think these were pretty safe. I had used them with no adverse effects at the very first sign of fin rot in a treatment that also included plenty of water changes, and the fish lived, the fin rot went away. (Note: the fish involved is still with me, and his lady has just laid a new crop of eggs)
However, I have recently heard from a fresh water fish expert (specializes in native fish in the American Mid West) has noted that in the aquarium where he works (laboratory, not public aquarium) that the scientists noted that these products interfered with the breathing reflex in certain groups of fish. The fish would slow their respiration to the point of death if these products wer ein the water.
Also, the more experienced Loach keepers here at Loaches Online have noticed very poor results when these products are used on Loaches.
Also, it is known that Anabantoids (Bettas) cannot deal with this product. (the company makes a different sort of product for Bettas) I therefore have not used it in most of my tanks, because I have a lot of Gouramis. (And have not needed to anyway- very little fish disease)

As for what happened to the Clown Loach:
Flashing is a sign of irritation. It can be from several causes. Ich is certainly one cause, and the flashing is soon followed by the appearance of the characteristic white spots that are the growing parasite.
Other causes of flashing can be velvet, a hard to detect parasite, or water chemistry issues, such as an irritant in the water.
When your treatment was followed by worse symptoms, the Clown seems to have developed excess slime coat and was shedding this slime coat this is also a hint that there is some irritant present. There are also diseases that can result in a fish producing excess slime coat that then sheds.

http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/fish_d ... rders.html

Scroll down here and especially look at E, I and K. Might not be what was wrong, but there is a lot of info at that site about fish diseases.

Keep a close eye on your other fish, and it would probably be a very good idea to do more frequent water changes for a while. You will be improving the water by removing more organic matter, and if the disease or parasites are free swimming you will be removing them, too. An ultra violet sterilizer will kill quite a long list of single celled and simple multi-celled pests and diseases.
You can begin removing the salt from the system by not adding it to the new water. Allow the salt level to drop slowly over a couple of weeks.

Worms on the side of the tank MIGHT have been planaria. You can do a search for some pictures of Planaria and see if they match. I do not know if any internal parasites of fish ever hang out on the sides of the tank. Planaria live on excess food in the tank, and may be a sign that you are over feeding or under-cleaning.

When was the last time you added new fish? Do you quarantine all new fish before adding them to the main tank? If you don't, you'll need to start. Prevention of is the best cure. While the fish are in quarantine you can then treat them prophetically for the most common parasites.

If this is a parasite problem, then you'll need to treat the fish for some common parasites. Get Prazipro or a product with praziquantel in it, like Jungle Parasite Clear. This will knock out any flukes or flatworms.

Another potential problem is the high TDS you are creating with the addition of salt. You need to stop adding salt.

What kind of rocks and substrates are in the aquarium, that is if you have any? If they are leaching, then that can cause a problem too.

Get a TDS meter. It may help pinpoint the problem if this is a osmotic stress issue that is caused when you do water changes.

Diana you should write a book. Your explanations are always so clear and precise!

This is so irritating, you guys are so clear and consice, I talked to, NO WORD OF A LIE 12 different people from 12 different stores all around the calgary area, and EVERYONE OF THEM told me to use salt cycle and the other treatments, these are people who are being paid to be experts, damn, maybe i should apply.

Thank you very much for all the info, so how often should i change the water? i was told no more than 25% once a week.

I was thinking of draining this tank and starting fresh only because of all the problems i've had with it. but have been told that that could be bad also.

They are not experts, they are sales people.

You can't remove all the salt at once. It has to be done slowly or else you could do more harm to the fish. If it's feasible, do 20% water changes twice per day for one week.

Two 20% water changes per week is what I usually recommend, but it depends on the water quality. You may need to do more or less based on how much pollution accumulates in the water.

Ditto Chief: You cannot simply remove all the salt (dropping the TDS) in one day.
I would do a maximum of 10% per day, or 25% every 2-3 days.
If the nitrates, nitrite or ammonia is too high, and you need to do larger water changes then add salt to the new water, but only 1/2 as much so that the TDS is getting lower, just not so fast.

With every water change vacuum the floor of the tank the best you can. It is fine if you do 1/4 or 1/3 of the floor each time, and keep rotating around the tank so that over several water changes the whole tank gets cleaned. Similarly if you want to scrub the decorations. Remove just a few, not more than 1/4 of them at one time, scrub them and return them to the tank.

By rotating around the cleaning you are also doing less damage to the nitrifying bacteria and leaving the bigger portion of the population to recover.

When you clean the filter keep the filter media, and simply rinse the sponges and floss in water that has been removed from the tank for a water change. This also will keep the beneficial bacteria alive.
Activated Carbon can remove quite a lot of things from the water, so if you want to use it I would change it about twice a week for 2 weeks, then leave some in there for a couple of weeks. Between the water changes and the AC you will be removing a lot of things from the water.

100% water change need not be harmful to the fish, but it is very important that the new water be as close as possible to the old water. The test kits available to the hobbyist are not particularly accurate, so if ALL the tests do not match then the water is likely not close enough to make a 100% water change work.
Test GH, KH, pH, TDS and salinity.
Much safer, though to do smaller, more frequent water changes so that any change in water chemistry is moderated by the full volume of the tank and the fish can adapt to each change slowly.