Loaches Online Forum

I am new to keeping an aquarium and have two problems: the nitrogen cycle and ich. I thank you in advance for your time as I tried to include as much detail as possible and in hindsight this post seems mighty verbose.

I have a 30 gallon tall tank ( 24”H, 22”W, 12”D) currently stocked with 2 clown loaches (2-2.5”), 3 black skirt tetras (two 1” and one 1.5”), two female mollies (2” each) and 1 hatchet fish (about 1”). The substrate is sand, the tank is moderately planted (about 15 plants in various sizes), a 18” bubble wand (Whisper 20) and there is a medium sized (8”) piece of driftwood and several rocks to provide nooks and crannies. The lighting is a 10,000 K high intensity lamp made by Ocean Sun. Water temperature stable at 84 degrees for 2 days now, previously at 82 pre-ich. No changes, additions, removals, etc in the last 4 weeks (other than rise in T).

I bought the tank with the fish, hood, filter, heater, driftwood, etc for a steal ($40) off craigslist in early June of this year; it had been established for at least 2 years by the previous owner and also housed a few Oscars (they were rehomed separately). There was gap of about an hour between break down for commute and set up. There was only one clown loach that came with the tank, I purchased the other loach two weeks after set up (it seemed so lonely and unfulfilled schooling with the tetras and the water parameters at the time were holding steady).

The current filter is an Aquaclear 50, hang on back type. The filter that came with the tank was an Aquatech 20-40, which was replaced after much research into filter types, brands and reviews. However, I had both filters running simultaneously for at least 4 weeks (Aquaclear was introduced 2 weeks post set up) before removing the established one in order to help maintain the biological filter. The substrate that came with the tank was large gravel, like small river stones about ½” diameter. I had planned to replace this with sand for the loaches. Two weeks after introducing the Aquaclear, I went ahead with the replacement as the water parameters were good and holding steady.

In the beginning, my tank maintenance regime was a 10% water change each week (via gravel vacuuming) simply to eliminate debris and tidy up the tank. I checked the filter(s) with each water change. The water parameters were normal and the water was pretty much clear for the first several weeks through all the transitions and changes. At one point about 6 weeks post set up (about a week or two after all planned changes were put in place), the water was sparkling clear with a high polish look that was mesmerizing. All were pleased. For about a week.

The water began clouding slightly one day and smelled different, which caused me to be concerned about ammonia. Alas, I only had the 6 in 1 test strips that for some reason omit the ammonia test. I purchased the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Master Test Kit and the ammonia test read .25ppm, nitrates less than 5ppm, nitrites 0ppm, and 7.8ph. I continued to test the water daily and only the ammonia reading rose, up to 2.0ppm after a week. I treated the tank with Ammo Lock as directed and switched to Stresszyme during water changes. Over the next few weeks, I increased the frequency of water changes in respect to the ammonia level in the tank (attempted to keep ammonia below 3ppm, which is how much is neutralized by each dose of Ammo Lock). Ammonia continued to rise each day, but nitrites and nitrates still read 0. Water wasn’t very clear, but not “cloudy-cloudy”.

July 31st: In the morning, the water was predictably a little higher in ammonia than previous day but otherwise no difference. Performed 15% water change. By midnight, the water had clouded so badly that I could hardly see the back of the tank. There was a foamy white layer covering half the water surface. Removed foam, tested water. Ammonia was off the chart. The highest reading on the API color card is 8ppm in a dark green. The test tube showed deep blue. Nitrates and nitrites still 0. Performed 40% water change and double dosed Ammo Lock. In the morning, the water was even cloudier and the foam had reappeared. I couldn’t see further than 2” into the tank. Removed foam, ammonia still read deep blue, nitrites at .50ppm, nitrates 20ppm. Performed 20% water change and serviced filter (rinsed out biopellet cartridge and biofoam (in conditioned water), replaced carbon cartridge with Aquaclear ammonia remover filter insert).

I assumed that my biological filter had crashed, so researched to find solutions. I slowly raised the temperature of the water to 82 from 80, increased air flow to the bubble wand, increased the time that the lamp is on, and decreased feedings to once every other day (my gf is convinced I’m starving them).

By August 4th, the water had cleared somewhat so I could start to make out the outline of the plants in the back of the tank. Ammonia had dropped to 2ppm, nitrites 1ppm and nitrates 40ppm. Went to bed at 1 AM. August 5th, I woke up at 8am to find the filter not working. No flow at all. I removed the motor compartment to find sand had jammed the magnet. Rinsed the sand from the motor and the cartridge compartment with tank water.

Tested water and found ammonia levels at 4ppm, nitrites and nitrates at 0! Must have damaged biological filter (?). I reduced the air flow to the bubble wand. I rectified the sand getting sucked into the filter a week later by digging the bubble wand out of the sand and covering it with the tank’s original pea size gravel (I guess that would be the one change in the past 4 weeks, gravel was very thoroughly cleaned). Returned air flow to maximum.

On Tuesday, I noticed white spots that look like sugar crystals on the fins of one of the tetras, both hatchet fish, and both mollies. The one infected tetra’s eyes are also clouded directly in the center by a thin round translucent white spot.

Yesterday, I woke up to find a dead hatchet fish, my first casualty. He was the one most affected by the ich. I vacuumed and performed a 20% water change.

My loaches don’t have any ich spots that I can see at all. However, the dominant of the two is turning darker. The dark bands were a pale black/ medium grey just a few days ago but as of today, they are dark black just like the other loach.

The fish that are infected with ich have much less of the visible ich today as opposed to Tuesday. I dosed the tank this morning with 2/3 of the directed amount of Kordon’s Rid Ich+. Today: Ammonia 8ppm (Ammo Locked), 7.8ph, 0 nitrites and nitrates, 84 degrees. I plan to gravel vacuum sometime today to clean out as much of the 2nd phase of the ich life cycle as I can and decrease the ammonia level.

1) Is the full dose of the Rid Ich+ safe for my loaches? Is there a safer approach? Haven’t found much information on garlic therapy so would appreciate more.

2) Is there something I’m doing wrong that is causing my biological filter to continue crashing? What can I do differently?

3) Is it possible that the tetra’s cloudy eyes are just infected with ich or should I try to pinpoint another culprit? Suggestions?

4) Am I really starving them and contributing to an already weakened immune system?

Thanks much for anything anyone would care to contribute!

Sounds like you had things under control. One at a time changes, take it slow, monitor things to be sure they are stable... these are the best things to do.
I do not see anything that could have crashed the bacteria when you were monitoring, and things were OK.

1) I would not raise the dose of Rid Ich. Garlic may help in general to keep the fish immune system strong, but is not in itself specific against Ich. Keep up the water changes (vacuuming the substrate) and re-dose the Rid Ich to keep the dose correct.

2) Does sound like Biofilter is crashing, but I do not know what might be causing it to do this. See longer notes below.

3) Cloudy eye might have some Ich, but more likely ammonia burn, or some other issue.

4) You are not starving them. Every other day is not going to make them fat, but it is fine for now.

MORE NOTES

1) There are many ways to treat Ich. I would keep up as many water changes as you can, emphasizing gravel vacuuming to remove fallen Ich. You will not be removing all of them, but will be removing a lot, as well as helping the water quality. I would add a UV sterilizer but see next note. If you want to add garlic to the treatment you can use a liquid garlic preparation available in fish stores, or you can use fresh garlic. Easiest to crush a small clove and soak dry food (flakes, pellets...) in the garlic juice before serving. Then feed both the garlic and the treated food. If the fish do not want to eat the garlic, then skip it next time. Some fish will eat it, though.

2) Nitrifying bacteria will grow under a wide range of conditions. Optimum:
Alkaline pH, say from about the upper 6s to about 9.
Some minerals in the water, best gauge is GH and KH above 3 degrees.
Good water movement (the stalled filter is not a good event) Aquaclear 50 on a 30 gallon tank should be good.
High oxygen, best gauge is lots of water movement, and watching the fish behavior. Do not over dose ammonia locking products. Some can lock up oxygen.
some supply of ammonia. It need not show at all on the tests, if there are fish in the tank the ammonia will be there. In this case I think we can say there is plenty of ammonia.
Nitrite, but not too high. Similar to ammonia, in a fully cycled tank you won't see any, but it is there. If it gets over 5 ppm then this can stop the growth of the bacteria.
Away from light: the nitrifying bacteria tends to grow in the shade. With such a bright light these bacteria will grow in the filter, on all the media, and on the under side of the grains of sand, and on the bottoms of the leaves and similar places. It seems there is plenty of space for them to grow.

Things that kill nitrifying bacteria:
Fish medications. Even when the medicine is labeled that it is safe, it may slow the growth of the bacteria, which is why you are not seeing much recovery.
Chlorine or chloramine: when you rinse the filter media do not use tap water.
Other toxins such as cleansers, cosmetics and many other household things that can accidentally get into the tank. Yes, it is possible to weaken or kill the bacteria this way, but the fish seem OK.
Ultra Violet light. If you get a sterilizer to help kill Ich, turn it off when you add more beneficial bacteria. (see next note)

How to replenish the bacteria:
1) Keep up the water changes to keep the ammonia as low as possible, and keep using the ammonia locking product.
2) Get some Dr. Tim's One and Only or some Tetra Safe Start. Add half the package to the tank right after doing a very large water change. (and turn off the UV) Do not do water changes for a couple of days, or you will remove the bacteria you just added. Read the directions, and start doing water changes when they say it is OK. You should see positive results in a few days, a week maximum. If there is still something killing bacteria in the tank lets find out more about what might be going on, correct it, then add the reserved package of bacteria.

Other ways to get the ammonia low: I think you are doing these things: Zeolyte or other ammonia removing filter insert. Change it frequently. (Zeolyte can be recharged by soaking in salt water)
LOTS of water changes. Get the ammonia even lower, then use the ammonia locking product. Perhaps 2 water changes of 50% every day if the ammonia keeps spiking like this.

When the tests show nitite is present, add 1 teaspoon salt (sodium chloride) per 20 gallons. This reduces the amount of nitrite that crosses the gills into the blood. This is a low lecel, and is safe for even salt sensitive fish. It is not a high enough dose to help with Ich.

Your tests seem to indicate that some bacteria are still alive.
Something is producing nitrite and nitrate. Even if the population is not big enough to remove the ammonia, there is some population of bacteria in the tank. Otherwise the ammonia would skyrocket (it is) but there would be no nitrite or nitrate readings.

Do enough water changes to keep the ammonia under .25 ppm, the nitrite under 1 ppm and the nitrate under 10 ppm while there are other stresses going on. When the ammonia and nitrite are under control, and the Ich is gone, healthy fish might handle nitrate a little higher.

If the plants are showing any deficiency signs then add fertilizer so they will help with the nitrogen situation. Make sure it is not a nitrogen fertilizer, of course! They might need potassium, though. This seems to be the element that aquarium plants use the most of.

What kind of ammonia test kit do you have?

IME, Ammolock will give false positives on Nessler based ammonia test kits. Nessler tests measure the total ammonia present in the tank, ammonium (which is harmless) and ammonia (which is toxic to fish).


Here's part of an article from The Skeptical Aquarist-

"Ammonia tests. There are two basic types of ammonia test kits. Nessler kits have one reagent, that is, a single bottle of liquid or one tablet to dissolve in your water sample. If your ammonia test kit registers in shades of amber, it's Nessler. They generally are quicker to use, but ammonia-locking products (e.g., AmQuel) will cause Nessler kits to give false positive readings.

The other type of kit is salicylate based, with two sets of reagents. If your ammonia test kit registers in shades of yellow to green to blue, it's salicylate. Salicylate test kits are unaffected by AmQuel and similar products, but they do take longer to develop a reading. If your water has chloramines and you're using AmQuel or somesuch, you'll need a salicylate NH3 test.

Don't test for ammonia right after a water change. If you're too liberal with the dechlorinator, you could be getting some false-positive ammonia test results that way, too. According to Seachem at their website, harmless sodium thiosulfate, such as found in Seachem's Prime conditioner, will give false positive readings for ammonia, whether the tests are based on Nessler's Reagent or on salicylate. What happens is this: the sodium thiosulfate, Na2S2O3, is reacting with the chloride ion that is part of the test reagents. After 24 hours, though, according to Seachem, the Na2S2O3 will have have reacted with chloride ions naturally found in water, and will no longer give such false-positive readings. "
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/w ... tkit.shtml

Thanks so much for the new input, Diana and Chef!

As of this morning, the ammonia is registering off the chart again, nitrites and nitrates still 0. My girlfriend may have overfed them last night despite my pleas of "please no more".

Chef, I have the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals master test kit with the two different ammonia reagents that registers results from yellow to dark green (not quite blue like my test results). It also includes reagents for nitrates, nitrites and ph. I read that this test will show a positive reaction to ammonium as well as ammonia. I'm hoping that most of what is detected is the harmless ammonium rather than unlocked ammonia.

Diana, I've been wary of making very large (more than 30%) water changes, but now may be the time to get a bit more aggressive. I'll heed your advice and do at least one 50% water change today to bring down the ammonia levels, dose with Rid Ich and Ammo Lock, offer garlic with a little food and perform another water change later tonight if the levels are still high.

Questions: How much of a water change is too high/ too frequent? Is there a rate of water change at which the osmotic stress will outweigh the benefits?

I also plan to service the filter today and replace the ammonia remover insert. So far, I've only rinsed the inserts and the insert chamber and scrubbed out the tube that pulls in the water. Is it okay for me to also scrub the gunky build up off the interior surfaces of the filter chamber? It is dirty, but I'm afraid to disturb any bacterial colonies on those surfaces. Never before have I wanted bacteria so badly!

I have a feeling I should invest in one of those ammonia alerts. Does anyone use one or have any suggestions?

I've tested my tap water several times and everything seems fine, no trace of ammonia, etc. Chlorine doesn't ever register either, but I still treat the water I use for adding to the tank as well as rinsing of tank items for chloramines with my water conditioner. I also wash my arms up to my armpit before and after each time I stick my hands into the tank. I've been worried about getting residue from soaps, lotions, etc into the tank. It's practically a surgical scrub down.

In respect to lighting, what should my lighting schedule look like with my Ocean Sun bulb? My understanding thus far is that light negatively impacts the effectiveness of ich meds, though the Rid Ich does not instruct me to turn off the lights? Is that accurate? And nitrifying bacteria grow in the shade? I have a regular fluorescent bulb, should I implement that instead until my cycle is intact? Maybe I should dose the Rid Ich at night before lights out? My plants are growing at a great pace (the dry onion plant bulb I placed in the tank in June is already over 2 feet tall and the sword plant is more than keeping up with the daily punching of holes by the loaches).

As for adding salt when the nitrites appear, I remember reading that aquarium salt is not appropriate as its composition is different than what is needed. Can I use kosher salt or what type of salt should I use (I imagine table salt has additives in it that aren't ideal)?

The fish are looking better and more active today, even the cloudy eyed tetra. I don't see any white spots on the infected fish anymore and the loaches are still visibly spot free, though the alpha loach is still darker than typical.

Thanks so much for your insight and time! It is much appreciated! I'm terribly attached to these fish!

Diana and Keith have said it all.

The only suggestions I can give you is that I use Prime and a Seachem ammonia alert indicator in my tank. I like Prime because it neutralizes Ammonia. Doesn't remove it, so that the bacteria can still use it. It does give false positives, so I keep the indicator in my tank. You also use a lot less Prime (1 mL treats a 10 gallon tank, instead of 10 mL).

You are absolutely correct about the feeding. The overfeeding can kill your fish. And right now while they are sick, they will eat less or not at all. When my fish are sick, I don't feed them. They are cold blooded. They do not need to eat like mammals do. They don't need fuel for their temp regulation, since they are cold blooded. The extra food decomposes and adds more ammonia.

As they start to feel better, I give them a small amount of food.

Good luck.

Questions: How much of a water change is too high/ too frequent? Is there a rate of water change at which the osmotic stress will outweigh the benefits?

Test tap water and tank for GH, KH and pH.

If they are similar you can do as large a water change as you want (I have done 100% water changes).

Similar:
If the tap water is not more than 1 German degree of hardness softer than the tank water.
If the tap water is not more than 2 German degrees of hardness harder than the tank water.
If the tap water TDS is within 10% either way, this is safe.

pH is less important, especially if the GH and KH are similar. However, if the pH is within .2 either way this is generally considered safe. (I have done water changes with much larger changes of pH, as long as the GH, KH and TDS are similar. I ignore pH as long as it is anywhere at all between 6.0-8.0 )

If tap and tank are not within those parameters, then you need to do a little math to figure out how large a water change is safe. If you give me the numbers I can do this for you.

When the fish are stressed you might want to do smaller water changes, but more frequent ones.
If they have handled a 30% water change in the past, then assume that much is safe. I would try at least 2 of these, several hours apart, and do this every day for a few days. By then the tap and tank will be so similar that you can do larger water changes.

Salt.
Sodium Chloride.

There seems to be quite a thing about 'Sea Salt' both for table use and as a way to empty your wallet.

In salt water aquariums they (me too) use a special blend of salt and minerals to replicate the water in the ocean. Do not use this in a fresh water tank. This is not the salt to use.

Aquarium salt is an expensive package, and is not too clear on what is in it. Sodium chloride, yes, but they want to use the mystique of 'Sea Salt' as if this is something different from sodium chloride. I do not know if any minerals from the ocean end up in 'Aquarium Salt'. The tiny amount you are using is not significant. If this is what you have, use it.

Kitchen salt (Leslie, Morton and many other brands): Read the label. If there are anti-caking ingredients, you might want to avoid this. If there is iodide, do not worry. The tiny amount you are using is insignificant.
Kosher: Usually good, read the label.
Canning or Pickling: Usually good, read the label.
'Sea Salt': Skip it. Just like 'Aquarium salt' they do not tell you what else might be there.
Rock Salt, for ice cream makers, or for sodium exchange water softeners: Usually good, read the label. Measuring is difficult. Again, for this use the possible variation is not important.
Road Salt: No. Too many impurities, and it might not even be sodium chloride.

For a use like this, @ 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons I would even use table salt with anti caking ingredients and iodide, or Aquarium salt. The dose is small, and it will not be there for long. Water changes will remove it.
The dose of salt @ 1 teaspoon per 20 is a generous amount for nitrite, as long as you can do enough water changes to keep the nitrite under 1 ppm.