clown with transparent areas on dorsal

[cider]

Hi everyone,
My alpha clown has some discoloration on dorsal fin, some areas transparent. This is the only area on her with problm . All other fish in tank have healthy looking fins,ect. . This alpha bit the tail of the other clown a few weeks ago , as I noticed some good size bite marks and kept my eye on his tail. It has healed well, nearly back to looking normal, which is why I have been doubting fin rot as I assume it would have damaged the bitten tail. I should note I am dealing wtih high nitrates at present and often wc to get them down. Not sure if nitrates reading 40 could cause the problem on my alpha clowns dorsal fin. Does anyone have any ideas on this ?

here's the tank info
wc-20-25% 3x week(vacuum substrate well)
54g
filters: HOT magnum, penguin w/biowheel, 2 hydra sponge fitlers
2 10'' air stones
plants and wood
fish: 2 clowns ( 2 1/2'' and 3 '')
7 platys
1 common plec
2 zebra danios
water: amonia-0
nitrites-0
nitrates-40
ph-6.8
food(not all same everyday): dry shrimp
fresh shrimp
Hikari vege tabs
high quality flakes
zucchini
romaine lettuce
fresh mushroom
shrimp pellets
feed once a day in a.m.

Hope the info helps . Thanks, cider

[Diana]

I would keep working on getting the nitrates down. I am not sure what would cause the fin to look clear except fin rot.

[cider]

ok , I will keep an eye on everything and wonder if it becomes necessary to medicate, will I need to medicate the entire tank and what is best to use without loosing my beneficial bacteria? Or should I remove only the infected clown and treat him in a hospital tank( will that stress him out more, being taken out and alone in hos- tank?) Just want to be prepared ,sorry for all the questions. Thanks again, cider

[Diana]

Fin rot is a bacterial infection. There are a couple of bacteria that can cause similar symptoms. Antibiotics can weaken or kill the biofilter, but often do not, especially if it is well developed. There are a couple of ways around that:

Treat in a Q-tank. You can bring a little filter media with the fish, and hope it is not killed, but if the beneficial bacteria die you will need to stay on top of water changes and keep redosing the medicine. This is the best way.

Find out if the medicine you are using will be OK if you add zeolyte to the filter, or other ammonia removing products. Use an ammonia locking product such as Ammo-lok, Prime or similar.
Some meds are incompatible with some dechlor, so read all the info you can find on both products.

Treat in the main tank, but have a back up source of nitrifying bacteria available. Add this to the tank as soon as treatment is over. This is also exposing all the fish to antibiotics that they probably do not need.
Couple of sources of replacement bacteria: At the beginning of treatment take some of the filter media (not much) out of the filter and do a fishless cycle in a separate container. Add more media to this container such as the media sold for growing nitrifying bacteria. By the time the treatment has ended in the tank the bacteria population will have grown quite a bit on the new media, and will give a good boost to whatever bacteria is still alive in the treated tank.
Buy bacteria in a bottle. Dr. Tim's One and Only and Tetra Safe Start have the correct bacteria.

'Fin Rot' is not he same as the fungus that can attack injuries. Has the other fish fully healed?

[cider]

Thnaks for your reply. The other fish whose tail was bitten looks fine, nearly back to normal.
Right now I have a 2g hospital tank which I am treating a platy who has a possible fungus infection, treatment melafix , on week 2 now, he has a white area near gill and also red , raw area , looks like the skin was being eaten away. It has not gotten any worse , looks a tad better, and he is eating, so I am trying to save him. I believe he got an injury of some type when he was in main tank. So should I put the clown loach in this hospital tank with this sick platy? It's small compared to what he is used to. I also have a q-tank , aprx 20g , which at present I have three platys to always keep it going and have 3 long fin leopard danios waiting to go in big tank.. I aquired them on Dec. 4th and they look fine but was planning on putting them in the main tank next week ; They can go in the main tank now , if you feel it's been long enough ,then I can use the q-tank as hospital for the clown if you think the 2g with sick platy would not be safe for the clown? I would prefer to put him in the 2g hospital if possible though. Yikes, don't know what to do. I won't have access to computer till next monday night and will go off this computer at 6am today. Sorry for long explanation. Hope to hear from you soon.
One more question, fin rot contagious ? Thanks, cider

[Diana]

2 gallons is not big enough a quarantine tank. If the biofilter dies the ammonia can skyrocket so fast the fish would die within a few hours.
(two weeks of treatment and no significant improvement- move the platy to a larger tank and change medications)

A 10-20 gallon tank is usually great for quarantine. Small enough that the cost of medicines is not too much, but large enough so the water quality is easier to maintain.

If fish from Dec.4 purchase have never shown any hint of illness then they could go into their tank now. If you have had to treat for anything then count a month forward from the end of medication to the earliest date that I would put the new fish into the main tank.

Fin rot is contagious only in the same sense that if you get an infected cut and your friend gets an infected cut did your friend's infection come from you? The bacteria that cause fin rot are all around, waiting for some stress that opens the door for then to start multiplying.
If the conditions in the tank are somewhat stressful to the fish (poor water quality, social issues, wrong food...) the fish have a slightly weakened immune system. The bacteria that are living on the fish and in the tank all the time can now multiply a bit faster because the fish are not fighting them off quite so efficiently. One or more fish might be more susceptible to a particular bacteria, or an injury can allow the bacteria to get a foothold, and they multiply faster. You then see signs of fin rot. In the mean time another fish that was almost showing signs is now attacked by even more bacteria, perhaps shed by the fish that is showing signs, and now another fish is showing signs of it.
It is not that one fish caught it from another fish. It is that all the fish are living in the same conditions, but each can fight off the bacteria at different efficiencies, so you see one fish today, and another tomorrow with the same disease.

High load of organics in the water can do 2 things: Some disease organisms grow better in these conditions. Some medicines will be wasted as they latch onto these organics, and not onto the disease causing bacteria. So the first line of attack is to increase the water changes and gravel vacs to be really sure the tank is as clean as possible. This is also why small quarantine tanks do not work well. The organic load builds up really fast. Faster than you can clean it.

[cider]

OK, you explained that very clearly, I now have a better understanding of what is/can happen. I have been doing many wc's and got the nitrates down to 20 and will continue . The dorsal fin on clown seems little better and keeping eye on it. I have put 2 of the dither fish in the main tank and the last will go in tomorrw . I keep 3 platy in that Q-tank at all times to keep it ready , so if I see any change in the clown's fins , I 'll put him in the 20g to medicate. I have been using less of the flake food , and giving Hikari vege tabs and shrimp and veges. I was concerned the high nitrates were coming from the flake food, who knows, cutting down seeming to help, and easier to do the wc's with the python. Thanks for your explanation and expertise on this ...much appreciated. Cider

[cider]

had to read back and recall you suggested I treat the main tank but with all the wc 's and water testing I 've been doing ,and seeing things getting better in main tank, I guess I was stalling till I could read this thread tonight . I do take the advice you give serious, but only have access to computer M-TH., and as things change sometimes , I needed to wait for more info. So , as of yet, I have not medicated the main tank , and hoped to use 20g q-tank if necessary. I hope that would be ok. As far as the platy in the 2g , don't think he will make it as the red rotting area is spreading and I did change the med to primafix but he is shaky and no choice but to let it end naturally in that 2g tank. I understand from your reply it's too small to use and why , so thanks for that info.- won't use it for hospital anymore after this platy . Cider