Ich pt.3 :(

[TayHudson]

So when I got home tonight, I found my first "expired" fish. One of the Ember Tetras

1 Down.

I hope I don't loose anymore. I will be doing another water change tomorrow.

[chefkeith]

FYI- dropping the salinity level too quickly is a common mistake fish keepers make during an ich treatment. When doing water changes, make sure the new water has the same salt content as the aquarium water. This is very important. Dropping the salt level too quickly will cause osmotic imbalance and make the fishes osmoregulatory system work too hard.

Good luck. Hopefully you have no more loses.

[TayHudson]

I replace the salt with the water changes. I had another embers tetra pass away.

[starsplitter7]

Salt is really bad for loaches and Cories. Just an FYI. Like Keith said changes in salt in the water can easily jeopardize the fish if the changes are made too quickly. If you do not have a hydrometer, you probably don't know how much salt you are changing. Also remember that salt does not evaporate like the water, so adding salt with each change increase the amount of salt concentration in the water. It will eventually hit toxic levels. Freshwater aquariums shouldn't have salt. It is a myth that freshwater fish need salt.

[clint]

Isn't salt a preferred method for treating Ich? I know i used it once along with elevated temps to beat Ich back, i lost a couple of Kuhlis though. My second round with Ich i used Ich-X from aquarium pharmaceuticals, same ingredients as all the rest of the ich meds.

[starsplitter7]

I follow the ick instructions on the stickie. With the danger of salt to loaches and cories, and me having a bunch of loaches and cories, salt isn't an option. I raise the temp, increase the air in the water and vacuum, vacuum, vacuum. I haven' t had ick in a couple years, and I am very grateful.

It is so easy to destroy their equlibrium, I do not trust salt as a treatment. I am too experienced to work with salt.

[TayHudson]

Well I'm not as experienced and I was getting advice from all angles with this ich problem. I can't take the salt out that I've already put in, and I've been told I can't treat with meds since I've already started with salt. Everyone does things different than the next, and what works for one person doesn't always work the same way for the next. I keep up with water changes and vaccuming. I'm trying to get rid of it. It's hard when everyone you ask tells you something different.

[starsplitter7]

I absolutely agree. The hardest part of being a new fish keeper is sorting through the constrasting info. When I found this site, and found that most of the advice on this site works, I was overjoyed. I generally do whatever Diana, Shari or Martin tell me. And quite a few others who have never led me astray.

One thing I have learned is that at a LFS, I ask each person who tries to help me three simple questions that I know the answers to. If they get the questions wrong, I know they don't know what they are talking about. If they tell me that they do not know, then I trust them. It is the people who pretend they know who are scary. I ask simple questions. "Will this common pleco outgrow my 5 gallon tank?" I know the common plecos can reach over 20". "Can loaches tolerate salt in their water?" No. "Will my bichir eat my tetras?" Yes. I had a saleslady try to sell me a killie telling me they make great companions to tetras. THen she bagged the neons with the killie,a nd we looked in the bag, and the 1.5" killie had 3/4s of a 1" neon in its mouth. The salesgirl freaked, and did pull the neon out and plop it back to its tank. I went home with neither.

I worked at a fish store for a few months, and I know that the goal of many is to sell products and livestock. They let me go, because I refused to sell fish if tanks were not ready or if the people had ick. They encouraged us to sell fish to people with new tanks and sick fish, because they knew the fish would be dead in a week and they could double their money. I think it is unethical and cruel. But that is much of the industry. So if you are getting advice from an LFS, make sure the person knows something about fish, and that they have your fish's health as a priority over their ability to make a buck.

Follow the instructions on the stickie for the ick treatment. Remember it is specifically aimed for loach owners. Lots of people know about fish and know nothing about loaches. And I have used salt in the past with mixed results. Remove the salt from the water slowly, and continue with what you are doing. Increase the water quality and air, continue vacuuming and everything will get better.

[TayHudson]

Do I remove the salt with water changes? I did about a 30% water change last night and vaccumed the tank really well. But now that I know the salt isn't good, I feel even worse. I don't want my Loaches to die. Or my Rams. I can see the stress on them is almost increasing.

I've had 2 ember tetras die since this started. For some reason my 3 silver tip tetras have shown no signs of ich at all, and the neons have almost all gotten back to normal.

I don't think less of the tetras, but I'd be WAY more upset if my loaches, pleco or rams die.

Houdini (pleco) has also shown no signs of it. From the little bit that I get to see of him.

When I bought my neons, I asked the girl if they had any rasboras and she took me over to the tank and noticed one didn't look quite right. She told me with all honesty that it had ich and would never sell any sick fish to someone, especially with a new tank. I was very impressed with it. I wish they had a larger selection because I'd go there more than to the one I bought the majority of my fish from.

It's a learning process, but it's not fair that my poor innocent fish have to suffer.

[starsplitter7]

Check posts listed by Chefkeith (and I think Diana too), who has written extensively on removing salt from the water and how to do it. It's like I told you in the first threads -- we all started at the beginning like you have, we have made the mistakes, and continue to learn. Don't beat yourself up, and continue to do right by your fish. We have all lost fish and suffered through the sadness. We understand your grief and guilt. Things will get better.

Most tanks have ick all the time. The fish can fend it off when they are healthy, the water is cycled and the environment is healthy.

I wanted to let you know that many fish stores have all their tanks on one water system. So if you see ick in one tank, all the fish are potentially affected. This is also the reason you never pour water from the fish bags into your tank.

Did you decrease the water in your tank, so that more air gets in the water as the water flows from the filter?

[chefkeith]

I disagree. Removing the salt in the middle of an ich treatment is going to stress the fish even more.

Loaches can tolerate salinity changes when the salt is added and removed very slowly. When I say slowly, I mean mixing the salt in a pitcher of water, and dripping the salt solution in the tank one drip at time over 48 hour period.

The salt treatment should be kept up until 2 weeks after the last ich spot is seen. You remove the salt by doing daily 10% water changes, then gradually working up to 20% water changes. It should take a few months to remove all the salt.

[starsplitter7]

Good to know? Could you cut and paste your advice on how to remove the salt after a successful treatment for ick? And a quick explanation of why salt is so bad? I really appreciate your advice on this topic.

Here's a good article on salt and why to avoid it in a freshwater aquarium.
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/salt.shtml

[chefkeith]

I think salt can be bad because it takes good measuring skills and patience for fish keepers to administer the treatment properly. You just can't dump a bunch of salt in and then forget about it. Then do a 100% water change when the treatment is over.

Anyone doing a salt treatment really should have a TDS meter to accurately measure how much salt is in the water.

Also I only advise using food grade salt, like kosher salt or canning salt.

[starsplitter7]

Thanks Keith.

[clint]

Here is a good sticky from another forum for treating ich with salt and high temps i hope this isn't frowned upon as Badmans is a very reputable web site. It worked for me quite well, until i added a new batch of oblongas which i can only assume had ich as i was ich free for months. I think the salt treatment can be rough on Kuhlis so i switched to a medicine for the second and hopefully last bout of ich, which cleared it up as well.

http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/foru ... pic=1024.0