) so if there is interest I'd be happy to give it a go in the comming days.loach in unheated water
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If there is some interest for it I can try and write a little about stress in fish from a 'scientific point of view'. I have a paper called "The stress response in fish" ( http://physrev.physiology.org/cgi/conte ... t/77/3/591 ) which is considered a standard work on this topic and I used it for a traineeship last summer. I have a relaxed weekend (my girlfriend is not home ) so if there is interest I'd be happy to give it a go in the comming days.
) so if there is interest I'd be happy to give it a go in the comming days.
looking to take down the tank. im also gonna sell off the tank cheap as well because i dont have the time anymore to maintain an aquarium due to personal reasons.
i think i will miss them when they go and am a bit reluctant about the whole selling thing, but sometimes the situation cannot be helped.
i think i will miss them when they go and am a bit reluctant about the whole selling thing, but sometimes the situation cannot be helped.
Sorry to hear it, but I understand. Had to downsize, myself, not too long ago.
books. gotta love em!
http://www.Apaperbackexchange.com
http://www.Apaperbackexchange.com
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helen nightingale
- Posts: 4717
- Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:23 am
- Location: London, UK
Dutch, yes please!
Lisa, when i first saw this thread, all the beginning had been deleted. i gather you are keeping clowns in cold water, and haveb had some adverse reactions.
i bought a garra from a shop, where the owner didnt know what a garra was, so didnt recognise it was a wrongly identified species. it was labelled as an algae eating loach and was in a coldwater tank with goldfish. unless you knew what it was supposed to look like, and how it was supposed to behave, you would have thought it was fine. i put him in a q tank but didnt turn the heater on for a while, as my kitchen is warmer than the shop. then i put the heater on its lowest setting, and very gradually rasied the temperature. over time i altered the water parameters as well. it is now a different fish. the colours are fantastic, compared to very dull grey and beige with no yellows, reds and blue, and the behaviour has changed too.
maybe if you were to very gradually increase the temperature, it would be easier for you to pass your loaches on to someone else?
Lisa, when i first saw this thread, all the beginning had been deleted. i gather you are keeping clowns in cold water, and haveb had some adverse reactions.
i bought a garra from a shop, where the owner didnt know what a garra was, so didnt recognise it was a wrongly identified species. it was labelled as an algae eating loach and was in a coldwater tank with goldfish. unless you knew what it was supposed to look like, and how it was supposed to behave, you would have thought it was fine. i put him in a q tank but didnt turn the heater on for a while, as my kitchen is warmer than the shop. then i put the heater on its lowest setting, and very gradually rasied the temperature. over time i altered the water parameters as well. it is now a different fish. the colours are fantastic, compared to very dull grey and beige with no yellows, reds and blue, and the behaviour has changed too.
maybe if you were to very gradually increase the temperature, it would be easier for you to pass your loaches on to someone else?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT ... 1&index=11 spam spam spam
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Keith Wolcott
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palaeodave
- Posts: 1370
- Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:25 am
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Dutch, I had a read through that abstract and although I don't know what an awful lot of it means, exactly, there are some very interesting points about how aquatic life has different stress factors to contend with. I'd love read a technical (but slightly dumbed-down!) article. By the looks of that citation index I'd say your paper definitely is a standard work!
Simple observation:
I have 3 Clown Loaches. I bought them when they were very small, about 2-3cm (This is right, they were barely an inch long, standard length)
I bought them 3 years ago. The first year they grew to about 2-1/2", about 6 cm. The following 2 year they have grown another couple of cm each year. They currently are about 5" long (standard length), or about 12 cm. For the past 1-1/2 years they have been in a 72 gallon bowfront tank. 4' long, 2' deep and width varies from a foot to a larger bow of close to 16"
(volume 270 liters, dimensions 1.3 m x .6m x .3m). I will be moving them to a 125 gallon this summer. (almost 500 liters, 6' long, or 1.7m)
I am keeping them at a temperature of about 82*F, 28*C.
Nitrates are kept very low by the plants (5-10 ppm).
The largest 3' tank I have seen is 45 gallons. (I have one: 1' x 2' x 3')
Most are less gallons than this.
I am not saying your fish cannot live under the conditions you have them under, but I wonder about them 'thriving'. Mine are half the age of yours, and growing twice as fast.
I have 3 Clown Loaches. I bought them when they were very small, about 2-3cm (This is right, they were barely an inch long, standard length)
I bought them 3 years ago. The first year they grew to about 2-1/2", about 6 cm. The following 2 year they have grown another couple of cm each year. They currently are about 5" long (standard length), or about 12 cm. For the past 1-1/2 years they have been in a 72 gallon bowfront tank. 4' long, 2' deep and width varies from a foot to a larger bow of close to 16"
(volume 270 liters, dimensions 1.3 m x .6m x .3m). I will be moving them to a 125 gallon this summer. (almost 500 liters, 6' long, or 1.7m)
I am keeping them at a temperature of about 82*F, 28*C.
Nitrates are kept very low by the plants (5-10 ppm).
The largest 3' tank I have seen is 45 gallons. (I have one: 1' x 2' x 3')
Most are less gallons than this.
I am not saying your fish cannot live under the conditions you have them under, but I wonder about them 'thriving'. Mine are half the age of yours, and growing twice as fast.
Last edited by Diana on Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
It isn't mine, I just have a copy.palaeodave wrote:By the looks of that citation index I'd say your paper definitely is a standard work!
It was written by one of my professors and has been cited about 390 times if I remember correctly. It's really nice for a student (such as myself) to have good contacts with such a professor.
i dont understand what you mean. er.. mine is about 7inches, urs about 5 inches. how is that..double.. doesnt make sense. and im taking down my aquarium anyway.Diana wrote:Mine are half the age of yours, and almost twice the size.
oh and thanks dutch for the info you've been providing. lots of technical terms in the article, but nevertheless still interesting. much appreciated
Stress behaviors in fish are, definitely, very hard to see. I don't know if any of this will be helpful because it's just based on observation, and the fact that I've had many of my loaches for 6-12 years.
I've had to move a lot with my fish in the past few years. I moved them from tank to tank in the same house a number of times as I upgraded, and finally between three houses in the same city. The biggest move was when I went to college and had to take them as carry on onto an airplane (before the liquid ban) and had to set them up in a tiny (30g) tank in another house. Then they were moved in the same tank to an apartment, and finally into a much larger (72g) tank in the same apartment.
None of them have died from these stresses, except that I did have an accident on the plane and lost a few of the smaller fish in transit. All the large ones made it through with no ill effects.
Because of all this moving, I've had the opportunity to watch how my fish behaved in same tank, differently arranged decor, new tank, old decor, and new tank, new decor. Their behaviors really DO change but they are sometimes so subtle that you really have to know your fish.
I sense when my fish are comfortable. It's mostly intuition, but it's also based on all this observation. If fish are withdrawn, flinchy, or lethargic, or else they hide all the time and won't come out to beg, something's wrong. They are scared, or stressed. This happened after I moved fish, and it didn't go away for a number of weeks. After a few weeks, the fish would slowly come out and beg, would swim a bit with each other, and take naps in hiding. Later still, they'd beg in force, take naps right in front of me, and rest easy in their hiding places. They'd also investigate my presence.
I've seen this process with every move. When they all had to manage in a 30g for a brief amount of time, the big clowns became accustomed, but the modestas did not. They bunched in a corner and were always very nervous. They are now beggy and willing to investigate in their current 72g tank. I've had the current tank for almost a year now, and they are only now starting to become very active and beggy.
Begging in loaches seems to be tied with their comfort level in the tank and with your presence. None of this is scientific, so I can't really claim anything by it. But I want to point out that fish do respond to their environment, and are not so dumb that they won't notice if plants or tanks change.
I've had to move a lot with my fish in the past few years. I moved them from tank to tank in the same house a number of times as I upgraded, and finally between three houses in the same city. The biggest move was when I went to college and had to take them as carry on onto an airplane (before the liquid ban) and had to set them up in a tiny (30g) tank in another house. Then they were moved in the same tank to an apartment, and finally into a much larger (72g) tank in the same apartment.
None of them have died from these stresses, except that I did have an accident on the plane and lost a few of the smaller fish in transit. All the large ones made it through with no ill effects.
Because of all this moving, I've had the opportunity to watch how my fish behaved in same tank, differently arranged decor, new tank, old decor, and new tank, new decor. Their behaviors really DO change but they are sometimes so subtle that you really have to know your fish.
I sense when my fish are comfortable. It's mostly intuition, but it's also based on all this observation. If fish are withdrawn, flinchy, or lethargic, or else they hide all the time and won't come out to beg, something's wrong. They are scared, or stressed. This happened after I moved fish, and it didn't go away for a number of weeks. After a few weeks, the fish would slowly come out and beg, would swim a bit with each other, and take naps in hiding. Later still, they'd beg in force, take naps right in front of me, and rest easy in their hiding places. They'd also investigate my presence.
I've seen this process with every move. When they all had to manage in a 30g for a brief amount of time, the big clowns became accustomed, but the modestas did not. They bunched in a corner and were always very nervous. They are now beggy and willing to investigate in their current 72g tank. I've had the current tank for almost a year now, and they are only now starting to become very active and beggy.
Begging in loaches seems to be tied with their comfort level in the tank and with your presence. None of this is scientific, so I can't really claim anything by it. But I want to point out that fish do respond to their environment, and are not so dumb that they won't notice if plants or tanks change.
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palaeodave
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- Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:25 am
- Location: London/York
Haha sorry! Do you have the paper as a PDF?Dutch wrote:It isn't mine, I just have a copy.palaeodave wrote:By the looks of that citation index I'd say your paper definitely is a standard work!
It was written by one of my professors and has been cited about 390 times if I remember correctly. It's really nice for a student (such as myself) to have good contacts with such a professor.
Lisa
you don't understand the theory of evolution (most ppl don't).
creatures can't adapt so quicky. Natural environments don't change overnight. If they did almost all creatures would die. Look at the mass die offs during the earths history. Adaptation takes time over many generations.
If creatures could adapt that quickly I would be covered in hair ;-P (CDN eh!)
Evolution works by modification through many generations.
It is not the survival of the fittest.
It is reproduction of the fittest.
It doesn't matter if a creature survives if they can't reproduce.
you don't understand the theory of evolution (most ppl don't).
creatures can't adapt so quicky. Natural environments don't change overnight. If they did almost all creatures would die. Look at the mass die offs during the earths history. Adaptation takes time over many generations.
If creatures could adapt that quickly I would be covered in hair ;-P (CDN eh!)
Evolution works by modification through many generations.
It is not the survival of the fittest.
It is reproduction of the fittest.
It doesn't matter if a creature survives if they can't reproduce.
drain your pool!
I'd say that's very accurate (for as far as my own knowledge goes).Icewall42 wrote: They are scared, or stressed. This happened after I moved fish, and it didn't go away for a number of weeks.
When research is done on stress in fish, stress is often induced by netting the fish and in aquaculture salt is sometimes added to the fresh water to counteract the stress induced by transport.
I wish. My department used to be run by prof Wendelaar Bonga, but even there the paper is scarcely available. I got my own hardcopy directly from him.palaeodave wrote:Haha sorry! Do you have the paper as a PDF?
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