Clown Loach breathing really rapidly all of a sudden?

[ey]

Hi,

I began treating for ich in my 300L community tank about a week ago, (am using Wardley's Ickaway) after noticing no more white spots the next day after putting the first dose of medication in, I treated for another 6 days. During this period, I kept the tank lights off and fed very minimal amounts.

At the end of the treatment, I did a 35% water change, and also cleaned the canister filter. However, later in the day, I noticed another white spot had appeared on one of the clown loaches, so I had to retreat the whole tank again.

Put in another dose of medication last night, and increased the temperature gradually from 26.5oC to 30oC (this happened over 24 hours), again when I checked earlier tonight, the white spots had cleared up, but will continue monitoring the fish.

How can one tell when to stop treating the tank? I understand that ich can still be in the tank, even if you cannot see white spots on the fish, i.e. they are in their free swimming form.

Also, one thing I noticed was that 2 of the clown loaches were breathing really rapidly, looking like they had suffered an asthma attack! Water parameters are near perfect - ammonia/nitrite 0, nitrate 10 and pH 6.6.

The other clown loaches are acting, swimming and eating like normal and so are the yoyo loaches, cories and tetras. Its just these 2 CL that are breathing so fast, non stop.

The only thing I can think of is a lack of aeration. The air pump I've been using all along is Hailea that pumps out 330L/hour, do I need to buy another air pump?

The other possible reasoning, could be that the clown loaches that are breathing so rapidly, might be feeling the effects of the white spots entering and leaving their bodies, as I've read that it can hurt their skin, as they are scale-less. Should I put in some Melafix to help them with their scales/fins?

Sorry for the long post, thanks if you got through it all and any feedback would be appreciated. I'm trying to do all I can to help the 2 poor clowns, hopefully they'll appear normal again by tomorrow.

[TammyLiz]

Other than oxygen levels being depleted there is a chace the gasping could be due to ich in their gills. Hopefully this isn't the case. Have you raised the temp as is usually reccommended? I have treated for ich successfully in a temperature of 78F. If I were you, I would lower it to that if they are having a hard time breathing. The higher temperatures are to speed up the life cycle of the ich, not to kill it, so if your fish are having a hard time breathing, in my opinion, it is safer to lower the temperature, which from will increase oxygen levels.
Ich should be treated for a minimum of 2 weeks, even if you don't see spots after day two. This ensures that all of them have gone through one complete life cycle and have reached the vulnerable stage where they can be killed by the medication. Since you saw new spots after skipping a day, I'm not sure if you should start counting over again or not. I'll leave that to debate because theoretically you could have missed the vulnerable stage of a few of the parasites.
I personally do not believe that ich is in every tank. There are many who do, though. The belief is probably fueled by the fact that ich medications do not have instructions to treat for two weeks, so the ich is not wiped out and so allowed to return at a later time. I do think it is possible for it to lay dormant but to say it is so in every tank in whole world because it is in some, is a pretty big assumption.

EDIT: I read wrong what you said about ich still being present in the tank. The last part was directed at a comment that I thought you made but you didn't! Sorry about that.

[ey]

Other than oxygen levels being depleted there is a chace the gasping could be due to ich in their gills. Hopefully this isn't the case. Have you raised the temp as is usually reccommended? I have treated for ich successfully in a temperature of 78F. If I were you, I would lower it to that if they are having a hard time breathing. The higher temperatures are to speed up the life cycle of the ich, not to kill it, so if your fish are having a hard time breathing, in my opinion, it is safer to lower the temperature, which from will increase oxygen levels.
Ich should be treated for a minimum of 2 weeks, even if you don't see spots after day two. This ensures that all of them have gone through one complete life cycle and have reached the vulnerable stage where they can be killed by the medication. Since you saw new spots after skipping a day, I'm not sure if you should start counting over again or not. I'll leave that to debate because theoretically you could have missed the vulnerable stage of a few of the parasites.
I personally do not believe that ich is in every tank. There are many who do, though. The belief is probably fueled by the fact that ich medications do not have instructions to treat for two weeks, so the ich is not wiped out and so allowed to return at a later time. I do think it is possible for it to lay dormant but to say it is so in every tank in whole world because it is in some, is a pretty big assumption.

EDIT: I read wrong what you said about ich still being present in the tank. The last part was directed at a comment that I thought you made but you didn't! Sorry about that.

Thanks for the reply TammyLiz. I have treated ich in the past with success, and that treatment went for around 12 days, close to 2 weeks as you suggested. As a result, the 7 days treatment this time didn't quite finish the job.

I've not seen the CL breathe like they are before, if their is ich in their gills, does this mean they are close to dying? None of the CL has any white spots observable to the naked eye at the moment, but thats not to say they have no ich on them. I will lower the temp slightly and see if that helps, as most articles, sites etc suggest raising the temp to 86 F.

I've also taken some tank water out, to lower the water level, so the air stones create more aeration.

Will definitely keep you posted on how things go.

[Emma Turner]

Air pumps are not that efficient at increasing oxygen levels in a tank - the oxygen really only enters the water at the point where the bubbles break the surface. A better quick-fix would be to drop the water level in your tank so that the return pipe(s)/spraybar(s) from your filter return(s) cause water to splash down onto the water's surface and incorporate more oxygen. Adding a powerhead with the flow diverter angled upwards will also agitate the water's surface, and increase O2 levels. The more churning at the water's surface the better.

Emma

[ey]

Oh no! I just checked on the 2 clown loaches, both are still breathing fast, and one of them (the small 1" one) seems to have one of his/her eye popping out! Is pop-eye related to white spots or rapid breathing in any way?

Should I treat the tank immediately with a dose of Melafix?

Not sure why this clown's eye would look like popping out all of a sudden.

EDIT: The other unaffected clown loaches are still behaving normally and are not rapidly breathing.

[ey]

Air pumps are not that efficient at increasing oxygen levels in a tank - the oxygen really only enters the water at the point where the bubbles break the surface. A better quick-fix would be to drop the water level in your tank so that the return pipe(s)/spraybar(s) from your filter return(s) cause water to splash down onto the water's surface and incorporate more oxygen. Adding a powerhead with the flow diverter angled upwards will also agitate the water's surface, and increase O2 levels. The more churning at the water's surface the better.

Emma

Thanks for that Emma. I have a AquaClear HOB filter, so the water splashing down from that helps somewhat. I will lower the water level even more so the spraybar of the canister filter will make the water splash down on the water surface.

Is there anything I can do to help out the Clown Loaches at this stage? Its now night time here in Oz so I would have to wait til the morning if I need to get anything from the LFS. Hopefully, the clowns will get better by then.

[NancyD]

Are you changing 25%-40% water before adding more ich treatment, every other day? Gasping could be from a build up of meds, although malachite breaks down pretty fast I'm not sure formalin does. (Assuming thats what is in your ich med.) Did you run carbon in your filter to remove residual meds when you thought you were finished? Pop-eye is IME often due to poor water quality but your params look good. Could it be from an injury? I think I'd go with water changes & skip the melafix but I've never used it. Good luck.
Nancy

[ey]

Are you changing 25%-40% water before adding more ich treatment, every other day? Gasping could be from a build up of meds, although malachite breaks down pretty fast I'm not sure formalin does. (Assuming thats what is in your ich med.) Did you run carbon in your filter to remove residual meds when you thought you were finished? Pop-eye is IME often due to poor water quality but your params look good. Could it be from an injury? I think I'd go with water changes & skip the melafix but I've never used it. Good luck.
Nancy

Hi NancyD,

Yes, I am changing 30% of the water before adding additional doses of ich med. I've treated the same batch of loaches for ich before, for an even longer treatment duration and they didnt show any signs of gasping.

I also ran carbon in the filter after treating for it last time (about 2 months ago), before last night, the loaches always seemed healthy and fine, and injury free.

Water stats are normal too, I checked again today and the water stats are unchanged.

[ey]

I did a 30% water change today and lowered the water level below the filter spray bars so to create more oxygen. Also added another air stone.

Of the 2 CL that were breathing rapidly, one died - the smaller 1" one. His eyes looked really poppy, and it became really really fat around the stomach before dying....found this weird as the other small clowns didn't show any similar signs, in fact, they all swam really actively while this one sadly passed away.

The other CL is still gasping - what does this mean?

Is it possible to find out what may be wrong with the CL or the tank?

I dropped the temp from 30C to 28C, and will drop this further to 26C tomorrow.

Water stats are: Ammonia/Nitrite 0, Nitrate 10, pH 6.6, 300L community tank.

[Emma Turner]

Hi ey,

I'm very sorry to hear that you lost one of your Clowns, and that one of the others is looking to be in a bad way.

They seem to be reacting very badly to something. Is there any way that you might have overdosed the treatment? (miscalculation of tank volume etc)? Is this treatment one that calls for a half dose to be used? If so, I'm presuming that's what you did. Maybe the build-up of chemicals after the first series of treatments was not removed by your carbon filtration before commencing on a second course? Perhaps that, in combination with the high temperature, is causing such a bad reaction in certain individuals. I think that bringing the temperature down at this stage has got to help, so you are doing the right thing. Maybe others here will have something else to add.

Emma

[NancyD]

ey, I, too, am sorry your loach died. I've heard that very small clowns are more fragile & difficult to acclimate. Is your other ill one & healthier ones all from the same lfs tank & time? How long have you had them? I'm thinking at only an inch probably not too long? Maybe the stress of shipping, going to your house & 2 rounds of ich (plus any preexisting low level of parasites or bacteria) was just too much for the weaker fish. Without better knowing whats wrong I'd be hesitant to bombard the tank with treatments & possibly add more stress to the others with ich. Do you have a small hospital tank you can use if you decide to try something else? We all know that desparate & helpless feeling, I'd go with Emma's suggestions.
Nancy

[ey]

Hi Emma,

Thanks for the reply. I totally wasn’t expecting this. I was actually glad to see my tank starting to mature, until this happened. Still, it makes me wonder if the ammonia/nitrite spike that happened 2 weeks ago has any correlation to this. But like you and others mentioned, it may well be a combination of factors causing this.

I made sure (spent 10 minutes reading the instructions, measured the tank, calculated the volume etc.) before putting the dose of medication in. You are correct that the treatment asks for half dose to be applied as there are loaches and tetras present in the tank, and that is what I did. In fact, I put a little less than half dose, just to be sure, as its always better to underdoes meds than to overdose.

My guess is the sudden change in temperature (me increasing it from 26.5 to 30.5 within a day), plus the additional dosage of med so soon after the last dosages have all contributed to this.

It’s pretty ironic, this may well have happened as a result of me treating for ich, and there is not a single fish with a single white spot in the tank at the moment. Sure, ich may very well still be in the tank somewhere, but for now, is it okay for me put a temporary halt on the treatment?

I have lowered the tank temp back down to 25.5 C – 26 C, the other unaffected CL and other fish seem to be behaving the same as they were before the temperature change, while the CL that was suffering, is still breathing quite rapidly, but fortunately not as rapidly as it was last night.

I’ve seen CL gasping before as a result of stress, normally, they would dart around the tank, gasp and then dart around again. This CL isn’t doing that, it is just lying on its side, looking very lethargic and then gasping. I tried feeding the CL today, all of them went crazy for the Hikari sinking wafers, but this sick CL was just hiding in the pot, gasping.

I’m not sure what more I can do to help him. I did a water change last night, should I do another one tonight to see if it may help? I do have a 29g tank, which has tetras, danios and cories in it, this tank has been running for close to 6 months, would it be cruel to move this sick CL to the 29g tank instead? I haven’t done anything yet as I’m not sure if the move would do more harm than good.

I'm hoping for the best, hopefully whatever is effecting this sick CL, wont spread to the other CL as I don't want to lost them all.

[ey]

ey, I, too, am sorry your loach died. I've heard that very small clowns are more fragile & difficult to acclimate. Is your other ill one & healthier ones all from the same lfs tank & time? How long have you had them? I'm thinking at only an inch probably not too long? Maybe the stress of shipping, going to your house & 2 rounds of ich (plus any preexisting low level of parasites or bacteria) was just too much for the weaker fish. Without better knowing whats wrong I'd be hesitant to bombard the tank with treatments & possibly add more stress to the others with ich. Do you have a small hospital tank you can use if you decide to try something else? We all know that desparate & helpless feeling, I'd go with Emma's suggestions.
Nancy

Hi Nancy,

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I heard the same about smaller clowns being more sensitive compared to the bigger ones. I thought I'd give them a go as the larger clowns were settling in well in my tank. All the CL I have, small and large are from the same LFS, but purchased at different time intervals, but they are from the same batch.

I have had the large loaches for over 2 months while the new (smaller) ones, I've had for around 3 weeks. I have a smaller 29g tank, it really isnt a hospital tank, but it has community type species in it - cories, tetras and danios. Would it be better putting the large CL there?

I just noticed he has some white spots on him, not a surprise when you consider the stress he is showing, by the constant and non-stop gasping - I wonder where he gets the energy from?

[TammyLiz]

You say you're doing a water change before adding any new med? Does that mean you're doing a water change every day? Or are you skipping days with dosing the med? I think I remember from another thread you're using malachite green right? And your bottle says to use once a week? When I first read this thread I assumed you'd started dosing every day when you said "I continued treating for another 6 days", but I now realize I was just assuming. Also, your med doesn't have formalin in it, right? It may be that you're undermedicating and the ich is taking hold and killing them. If you're not already doing so, you really need to be dosing every day. Its not necessary to do a water change every time.

[NancyD]

My malachite green (no formalin) says every other day, 1 drop/gal, 1drop/2gal for loaches & tetras. The water changes are to reduce the cysts in the gravel & free swimming stage & because treatment can damage the "good bacteria".( Bottle says once a week as a preventative, not a good idea IMO, just would stress fish needlessly.)
Nancy