Clown Loach breathing really rapidly all of a sudden?

[ey]

You say you're doing a water change before adding any new med? Does that mean you're doing a water change every day? Or are you skipping days with dosing the med? I think I remember from another thread you're using malachite green right? And your bottle says to use once a week? When I first read this thread I assumed you'd started dosing every day when you said "I continued treating for another 6 days", but I now realize I was just assuming. Also, your med doesn't have formalin in it, right? It may be that you're undermedicating and the ich is taking hold and killing them. If you're not already doing so, you really need to be dosing every day. Its not necessary to do a water change every time.

You say you're doing a water change before adding any new med? Does that mean you're doing a water change every day? Or are you skipping days with dosing the med? I think I remember from another thread you're using malachite green right? And your bottle says to use once a week? When I first read this thread I assumed you'd started dosing every day when you said "I continued treating for another 6 days", but I now realize I was just assuming. Also, your med doesn't have formalin in it, right? It may be that you're undermedicating and the ich is taking hold and killing them. If you're not already doing so, you really need to be dosing every day. Its not necessary to do a water change every time.

Hi Tammy,

Thanks for the tip. I'm doing water changes every 3rd day and dosing the meds every 3rd day as well, as I was worried about doing daily dosage. The bottle does clearly state to dose no more than once a week, so I didnt want to take a risk. Perhaps I should be dosing the med everyday?

The meds do not appear to have formalin in it. But you could be right, that the ich might not be killed off and is the cause of the clowns gasping.

I'm going to ask the LFS to clarify if I can safely dose daily.

[ey]

After careful consideration, I have decided to move the CL that has been virtually gasping non stop for the past 72 hours to the smaller 29g community tank. That tank has been running for almost 6 months and IMO a mature tank. I just hope by moving the CL to this tank, would reduce the stress it may be in and help fix the problem, otherwise I honestly do not know what to do.

The water stats for the 29g tank are:

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5
pH 6.8
Temp 26C

After putting him in, I noticed he wasnt breathing as fast and rapid as before, so this is a good sign. The bad thing is, I noticed the number of white spots on him had started to increase, he had 1 earlier in the night, now he has around 6.

I'll post up a pic soon.

I'm really disappointed, as this CL happens to be my favourite CL of the 8 that I have left. He actually looks really really healthy, great colouration and a good size (length/height/girth) proportion.

Now I'm in a dilemma. Is this CL gasping due to a lack of o2? Or is it due to the fact that ich is still effecting him as I have not treated it properly? Its a real catch 22 situation, on the one hand, he could be gasping because he is not reacting well to the amount of meds he's absorbed, so adding any more could kill it. On the other hand, it may well be that ich is building up in his body, to a point its effecting his gills, so adding more medication (not overdosage, but continuing treatment) may benefit it and save his life.

I'm not sure what to do. I really do hope he makes it.

[TammyLiz]

If you're only dosing once every three days I seriously doubt it is because of the medication that he is gasping. I would encourage you to dose more often. Nancy says she doses one drop per two gallons every two days. I actually did fewer drops, twice as often. I did about one drop every three gallons, every day. However, you never know if the concentration is the same between brands.

Once a week is rediculous. I don't know why they'd be reccommending it. Dose more because the ich is killing your clown and since it's getting worse, you have nothing to lose--he'll die if you can't get rid of the ich. I'm just trying to give you a little courage here. Go for it and add those drops. Keep treating your other clowns as well. Are there other fish in the tank you moved the little clown to? I wouldn't have done that--now you have two tanks to treat.

Is your clown tank still not cycled? You need to be doing tons of water changes, more than once every three days, if you are getting ammonia and nitrite readings. Bad water quality will make them more vulnerable to the ich.

[NancyD]

YOU"VE ONLY BEEN TREATING ONCE A WEEK??!! Sorry I needed to yell, I guess I missed that part. You have not been getting rid of the ich, just watching it go through it's life cycle. I'm sure thats the problem. Here's a good explaination of ithttp://www.caloriesperhour.com/fish/not ... his. Nancy

[ey]

If you're only dosing once every three days I seriously doubt it is because of the medication that he is gasping. I would encourage you to dose more often. Nancy says she doses one drop per two gallons every two days. I actually did fewer drops, twice as often. I did about one drop every three gallons, every day. However, you never know if the concentration is the same between brands.

Once a week is rediculous. I don't know why they'd be reccommending it. Dose more because the ich is killing your clown and since it's getting worse, you have nothing to lose--he'll die if you can't get rid of the ich. I'm just trying to give you a little courage here. Go for it and add those drops. Keep treating your other clowns as well. Are there other fish in the tank you moved the little clown to? I wouldn't have done that--now you have two tanks to treat.

Is your clown tank still not cycled? You need to be doing tons of water changes, more than once every three days, if you are getting ammonia and nitrite readings. Bad water quality will make them more vulnerable to the ich.

Hi Tammy,

Thanks for the encouragement. I didn’t want to take a risk by dosing more than what the directions on the med stated. But after reading what you and Nancy have suggested and with both of you having success, I’ll definitely give it a shot. I just remember reading somewhere never to overdose ich meds as it can have fatal consequences, but again, it really does vary from different meds.

I was thinking of switching the med back to the original one I used before with success. I have not treated the tank since Monday and have done 2 water changes since. The one I’m using is Wardley’s Ickaway, and I want to go back to using AquaMaster (its an Australian brand) but this med contains 37mg/ml formaldehyde and 0.32mg/ml malachite green. I thought this might be more effective since it had both malachite green and formaldehyde, whereas Wardley’s only has malachite green. The instructions on AquaMaster states:

“Use at the rate of 5ml per 20litres of aquarium water. For terta species, baby fish and scaleless fish (loaches etc.) Use at a reduced rate of 5ml per 40litres of aquarium. Repeat treatment after 3 days. DO NOT OVERDOSE.”

I moved the clown to the smaller tank, as I was scared that they might spread whatever disease it is they have to the other clown loaches. It will be hard to get over losing 1 or 2 loaches, but to lose all 8 will be hard to take.

The clown tank is definitely cycled, the only reason for the ammonia/nitrite spike 2 weeks ago was due to me leaving the filter inlet pipe switched off by accident for 18 hours, this caused the filter to stop working for 18 hours and during that time, ammonia and nitrite levels spiked. I fixed the problem (by water changes) and within 12 hours ammonia and nitrite had returned to zero. I have since purchased an AquaClear HOB filter to add to the tank as a contingency, in case anything like this happens again in the future.

If I follow the ‘one drop per two gallon every second day rule’, how often should I be performing water changes? Do you know how many drops there are in 1 mL? How can you drip out the med? The opening to the med bottle is quite large, so it is hard to dose by drops.

[ey]

YOU"VE ONLY BEEN TREATING ONCE A WEEK??!! Sorry I needed to yell, I guess I missed that part. You have not been getting rid of the ich, just watching it go through it's life cycle. I'm sure thats the problem. Here's a good explaination of ithttp://www.caloriesperhour.com/fish/not ... his. Nancy

Hi Nancy,

I’ve been treating every 3rd day. Sorry if I’ve dosed too infrequent, I was honestly afraid that by dosing daily or every 2nd day for a med that states once a week would do more harm than good on the loaches.

Thanks for the link. I have read similar articles on the net and understand what you mean about the 3 stages that ich goes through, but again I only hesitated this time while treating because of the instructions of once per week.

I’m seriously considering using the old medicine again (see previous past above) as I’ve had more success with it in the past. So even if the med states once every 3 days or once per week etc., it is okay to safely dose 1 drop/2 gal every other day? How often would I need to do water changes via this dosage regime? Are we talking UK gallons or US gallons?

Here’s a link to the AquaMaster medication I am talking about:

http://www.theaquariumshop.com.au/shope ... medy+500mL

[ey]

Thanks for all the help, its really frustrating when things aren't working and that helpless feeling. At least I now know what to do, thanks for Nancy and Tammy, I'm going to start treatment immediately and hope it works out.

I was just doing a search and come across another fish disease known as gill fluke.

Is it possible that the CL could be suffering from gill fluke instead of ich? The symptoms shown in gill fluke doesn't quite match what I'm seeing from this CL.

He is NOT gasping for air at the water's surface (though he is sitting on the gravel and gasping). His gills ARE pumping open and closed rapidly.

The CL doesn't appear to be showing any signs of this: "The gills may appear red and inflamed, bleeding or slimy and parts of the gills may be eaten away. The fish may scrape against objects to get the flukes off."

Just a thought, could this CL be suffering from both ich AND gill fluke? Or could the rapid breathing be a result of the ich?

[TammyLiz]

Probably because of the ich. It can also get in the gills, which would cause the rapid breathing as well, and if you're not seeing the other symptoms it is most likely not gill flukes. Good of you to research, though, the more you know the better. Now if in the future you do see swollen gills, etc, you'll know what it is.

[ey]

Sadly when I checked on the tank just then, the CL that has been gasping for the last 4 days died. It just stopped gasping and moving, and I knew he died....ironically I've been preying that he would stop breathing so rapidly and it turns out he's stopped breathing altogether. This happened a few hours after I put some more ich medication in, at the dose rate of 1 drop per 2 gallon....not sure what finally ended its misery - the ich med or it finally gave up.

Naturally, I feel really dejected taking his body out, this was my favourite CL, have had him for around 2 and a 1/2 months now. But if it was suffering before its last moments, which it looked like it did, I guess its the best thing to happen for the CL. Even before it died, it looked healthy apart from the gasping and a few white spots. It still had the sharp orange colours, and was girthy too. He actually grew too, he was 2.5".

I suppose I'll continue treating both tanks. There is still one more CL that I've moved to the smaller tank. He too is gasping, but not as rapidly as the one that passed away tonight.

The good news is that the other 6 CL in the big tank are all behaving and acting normal, no sign of ich or gasping.

[ey]

Tammy and Nancy, do you know what the active constituents (proportion) are in your respective ich medications?

I just checked on the 2 ich meds I've been using and noticed them having 2 totally different concentration for malachite green.

Wardley's Ickaway's active constituents consists of:

Malachite green 2.5mg/mL
Acriflavine 0.5mg/mL

While AquaMaster Rapid White Spot Remedy's active constituents consists of:

Malachite green 0.32mg/mL
Formaldehyde 37mg/mL

Notice the difference in concetration of Malachite green in the 2 meds?

Now, surely I can't be following the same dosage rates for the 2 meds right?

Which do you think would work better for the CLs? Do you know what concentration of Malachite green is in your ich meds?

The dosage instructions for the AquaMaster med is stated in italics in a few posts previously (above)

and the dosage instructions for the Wardley's med is:

Use 4 drops per 5 Ltr or 5mL per 125Ltr or Aquarium water. Use 2 parts per 5 Ltr for baby fish or tetra species. Not to be used more than once per week.

I assume the "2 parts" bit is a type and should be 2 drops.

What colour comes out in the water from your meds? Not sure if this will make any difference, but the AquaMaster med gives out a blue colour effect in the tank, that quickly dissolves while Wardley's has a green colour that takes a good 2 minutes to dissolve.

Which medication do you recommend me to use for treating the tanks at the "1 drop per 2 gallon" rate?

[TammyLiz]

I am so sorry to hear your clown died.

I use QuICK Cure. Unfortunately, my bottle does not say the concentration and I've thrown the box away, so I can't give you specifics. It just says Formalin, Malachite Green. I believe Formalin is basically the same thing as Formaldehyde. I think your decision to switch is a good one. When you dosed before the clown died, did you use the Wardley's or the Aquamaster? I can't believe its really that far off on the concentration. I feel really bad if you overdosed because of my advice. But that's even less than they recommeded to put in there at once, isn't it? 5 litres is about 1.3 gallons. Almost 2 drops per gallon? Once a week? What strange directions.

[ey]

Thanks Tammy.

I was using Wardley's to treat the tank just before the clown died.

Obviously, one drop of Wardley's would be much stronger than one drop of the AquaMaster med, as far as the Malachite Green goes. In fact, on a per mL basis, the Wardley med is over 7 times more concentrated in Malachite Green when compared to the AquaMaster.

So, without a doubt, applying the one drop per 2 gallon rule would would vastly vary depending on which med I use.

I can't believe its really that far off on the concentration. I feel really bad if you overdosed because of my advice. But that's even less than they recommeded to put in there at once, isn't it? 5 litres is about 1.3 gallons. Almost 2 drops per gallon? Once a week? What strange directions.

Don't worry, I doubt the loach died because I overdosed on the med, the gasping honestly looked as if it wasnt going to get any better....the thing I still can't get over is that it still looked so healthy and fit even when it died.

The dosage rates in the directions for the Wardley med is MORE than the dosage rate of a drop per 2 gallon, but this dosage is for the entire week, whereas the "a drop per 2 gallon" rate is used every 2nd day....I agree that directions are strange and hard to see how it works....and I thought Wardley was a reputable brand?!

[NancyD]

ey I'm sorry for your loach's death. My malachite is old & says 0.75%. I did a brief web search & did not see mention of the Wardley's ickaway except in forums so maybe it has been discontinued or something. I agree it's very odd the concentrations are so different, maybe why it said once a week? I'm very sorry if my advice added to your fish's distress. I would use the other brand. As far as color goes acriflavin is also a dye I think. I agree with TammyLiz that it's more likely ich in the gills not flukes or anchorworm. From all I read recently you'd be able to see the parasites & there'd be bloody slime in the gills. They are also more unusual in fish not in ponds & you know you already have ich. Keep up the Aquamaster treatment & water changing.
Nancy

[ey]

Hi Nancy,

Unfortunately, the last clown loach that was had been struggling for the last week died today. I believe I did all that I could in treating the CL, unfortunately it didnt quite work out. Hopefully I'll learn from this and it wont happen again in the future.

Your advice actually helped more than anything, as I had no idea what to do to help the CL. Had a feeling there was little I could do as they had gasped non stop for almost a week, that is very unusual....its normal to see CL breathing rapidly for a short period of time when they are stressed (eg. water change or someone walking past) but literally breathing rapidly non stop for a week?

I did manage to find Wardley's ickaway on their website, here:

http://www.hartz.com/Our%20Products/Browse.asp

Glad to report that all other fish in the tank are doing well and showing no signs of illness, though I will continue treating for ich until its gone.

From all I read recently you'd be able to see the parasites & there'd be bloody slime in the gills.

Are you referring to gill flukes here or ich in the gills?

[NancyD]

I meant gill flukes & anchorworms being visible & causing bloody, slimy gills. I really do think your fish had ich in the gills that caused the rapid breathing, it's an easy area for ich to attack & you can't see it, at least not easily. As for the wardley's ickaway, I wonder if it was meant to be used as a dip at that high dose rate. That wouldn't work for ich but maybe for some kinds of fungus? Strange that they also sell another malachite ich treatment. I guess you could still use it if you wanted to do the medical math involved in figuring a more standard dosage & frequency. I had thought they were all very similar in strength. I know I'll be more aware in the future. Good luck on the continuing treatment, you must be more than halfway done.
Nancy