I've apparently encountered a new hillstream killer.
Unfortunately, there is very little of information on what this is, so there is a need for some crazy guesses. The disease came with a shipment of chenis and is slowly killing them (both in my place and at the store).
There are no symptoms, nothing seen on the autopsy, and the tank params are fine.
Death pattern so far:
Day 16: 2
Day 23: 1
Day 27: 1 <today>
Treatment so far:
Levimisole (2 rounds)
Maracyn+Maracyn2 == 5 days
Maracyn2 alone == 13 days
(Maracyn2 was used due to the suspicion of the Patchy disease from the beginning -- it obviously did not do much. Most of the treatment was done prior to any deaths. The disease is certainly infectious. None of the dead fish -- and none of the alive as of now -- had obvious patches.)
This is about as much as I have -- I wish I had something else to go on....
The death pattern, however, seems very strange to me --- it really takes very long time for this bug to kill very small fish, and in the process the fish does not appear unhealthy (unless this bug spends most of its life cycle in the water....)
Any good (or bad) guesses and ideas are welcome at this point.
So are suggestions of any drugs that *may* do something good and less likely to make the situation worse.
Given that it is unlikely that anyone has the answer, what I'm actually looking for are crazy ideas....anything I can try other than simply waiting for the fish to die.
TIA
New Hillstream Disease -- crazy ideas welcome.
Moderator: LoachForumModerators
I hope I'm not being insultingly basic here, but since we're grasping at threads...
How often have you been doing water changes?
Do the deaths seem to be correlated to the water changes, either directly after one, or when one is due? (if you can remember)
Is there a big pH difference between your tap and tank?
Have you tested water params in the tank recently? (I personally tend to assume its the same as it used to be on this one, maybe worth double checking)
Have you tested your tap?
What are you feeding? Are they definitely getting enough?
Did you remove the meds with some carbon when you were done?
I'm just thinking, weakened immune systems cause sensitivity to slight environmental issues. Maybe they are just weak from fighting something off, or from the long med treatment, and tweaking basic things is all you can do for them while they build their strength back.
I would think between the levimisole and the maracyn 1 and 2 you'd have taken care of any bugs.
How often have you been doing water changes?
Do the deaths seem to be correlated to the water changes, either directly after one, or when one is due? (if you can remember)
Is there a big pH difference between your tap and tank?
Have you tested water params in the tank recently? (I personally tend to assume its the same as it used to be on this one, maybe worth double checking)
Have you tested your tap?
What are you feeding? Are they definitely getting enough?
Did you remove the meds with some carbon when you were done?
I'm just thinking, weakened immune systems cause sensitivity to slight environmental issues. Maybe they are just weak from fighting something off, or from the long med treatment, and tweaking basic things is all you can do for them while they build their strength back.
I would think between the levimisole and the maracyn 1 and 2 you'd have taken care of any bugs.
Thanks, Tammy,
Unfortunately, nothing interesting to report here. The water parameters are fine (a=0,nI=0,nA=0-10,pH=6.
; I was actually rechecking ammonia and nI every 6 hours when giving antibiotics. Since the first two deaths I was doing a 10% water change daily (was not clear immediately if the fish was killed by a disease or by the antibiotic). No noticed correlation to water changes (I'm aware of the recent yoyo stories). Tap pH tends to be around 7, and I add water slowly, so no pH shock. Definitely enough food. All clean. Carbon was out during the treatment, is back in now.
And since the death pattern is quite similar to what I saw at the store with very different params, I think that a disease is certain here.
Basically, the choice is either wait it out (and see if anyone survives), or try to hit the tank with something new. On TFF , someone suggested trying kanacyn..... Did you ever try it? Any idea just how bad it is on the biofilter?
Not at all, it always makes sense to go through the basic checklist.TammyLiz wrote:I hope I'm not being insultingly basic here, but since we're grasping at threads...
Unfortunately, nothing interesting to report here. The water parameters are fine (a=0,nI=0,nA=0-10,pH=6.
; I was actually rechecking ammonia and nI every 6 hours when giving antibiotics. Since the first two deaths I was doing a 10% water change daily (was not clear immediately if the fish was killed by a disease or by the antibiotic). No noticed correlation to water changes (I'm aware of the recent yoyo stories). Tap pH tends to be around 7, and I add water slowly, so no pH shock. Definitely enough food. All clean. Carbon was out during the treatment, is back in now.And since the death pattern is quite similar to what I saw at the store with very different params, I think that a disease is certain here.
Unf., I don't think this is the case. They had two weaks to build up the strength before the problem started; and they all looked quite healthy when i got them.I'm just thinking, weakened immune systems cause sensitivity to slight environmental issues. Maybe they are just weak from fighting something off, or from the long med treatment, and tweaking basic things is all you can do for them while they build their strength back.
Apparently, not. Maracyns (1=erithromycin,2=monocycline) are older and weaker antibiotics, rarely used with other animals now, they don't kill *every* bacteria. May be a virus too, or protozoa, or even a small external parasite (something ich-like, but smaller, or something in the gills----I could not see the gills very clearly). If it is a virus, I cannot do anything, but otherwise it may be possible to guess this right.I would think between the levimisole and the maracyn 1 and 2 you'd have taken care of any bugs.
Basically, the choice is either wait it out (and see if anyone survives), or try to hit the tank with something new. On TFF , someone suggested trying kanacyn..... Did you ever try it? Any idea just how bad it is on the biofilter?
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Jim Powers
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- Location: Bloomington, Indiana
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Jim Powers
- Posts: 5208
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:15 pm
- Location: Bloomington, Indiana
Its been over five years ago so I don't remember the details, but I think I lost a fish or two. I ended up going back to Maracyn 2.
Someone else may not have had the filter bacteria problem I did with Kanacyn. Afterall, I haven't had the filter bacteria problems with the Maracyns that some others have had. Go figure...
Someone else may not have had the filter bacteria problem I did with Kanacyn. Afterall, I haven't had the filter bacteria problems with the Maracyns that some others have had. Go figure...
Jim, Tammy, thanks.
The girl on TFF is actually experienced and the idea probably is not bad...but
It seems that I should not play with kanacyn just yet. After some searching it does seem to be quite unsafe for the biofilter, and for reasons unknown the biofilter in my tanks appears to be more vulnerable than usual (two bad nitrite spikes, one due to Maracyns, but one due to a treatment that did not include antibiotics at all). It is probably the option to try the moment I lose any non-hillstream.
There is an interesting chart on a discus site that classifies various meds on their damage to the biofilter. Both Erythromicyn and Tetracycline are listed as "Safe at low dosage" (these are the Maracyn's in essence); Kanamycine is listed as "Toxic". Strangely to me, good old Penicillin (as well as Ampicillin) is listed as safe....this makes me wonder if it is a possibility?
The girl on TFF is actually experienced and the idea probably is not bad...but
It seems that I should not play with kanacyn just yet. After some searching it does seem to be quite unsafe for the biofilter, and for reasons unknown the biofilter in my tanks appears to be more vulnerable than usual (two bad nitrite spikes, one due to Maracyns, but one due to a treatment that did not include antibiotics at all). It is probably the option to try the moment I lose any non-hillstream.
There is an interesting chart on a discus site that classifies various meds on their damage to the biofilter. Both Erythromicyn and Tetracycline are listed as "Safe at low dosage" (these are the Maracyn's in essence); Kanamycine is listed as "Toxic". Strangely to me, good old Penicillin (as well as Ampicillin) is listed as safe....this makes me wonder if it is a possibility?
Temperature?
Hi Mike,
Have there been any fluctuations in your water temperature? Just thinking that there might have been a drop in oxygen levels with a temperature spike that may have taken out the odd fish as opposed to a disease.
Good luck with the rest of your fish.
Have there been any fluctuations in your water temperature? Just thinking that there might have been a drop in oxygen levels with a temperature spike that may have taken out the odd fish as opposed to a disease.
Good luck with the rest of your fish.
LES,
no. it is steady 73F with several oxygen sources...
unf., it is certainly a disease, and now the picture looks worse than before: the lfs had about a dozen of chenis three days ago; yesterday i saw six newly dead and a couple of dying. So the hopes for immunity or healthier fish making it are gone.
(the store should be cheni-free within a couple of days, with the only surviving fish there being that erromyzon...if I go back with the camera, I'll post his current picture -- it is something that has to be seen to be believed.)
Almost no new information: no patches on the fish dead at the store, nothing seen on autopsy, the only strange thing was that one fish had pretty bloody mouth --- does it mean anything?
I actually find it very hard to believe that this is bacterial. The kill pattern (no symptoms, long incubation time, sudden kill) are more consistent with large parasites -- except I cannot find and trace of them.
Patchy disease may well be not the only thing involved and in effect was just a false lead.....if we forget about it, just what other symptomless hillstream killer disease were seen? Is there anything like an internal/external parasite that is hard to detect and that is not a tapeworm/roundworm?
anyway, crazy ideas are still quite welcome....with the big kill seen at the store, my chenis probably have less than a week unless something is done
no. it is steady 73F with several oxygen sources...
unf., it is certainly a disease, and now the picture looks worse than before: the lfs had about a dozen of chenis three days ago; yesterday i saw six newly dead and a couple of dying. So the hopes for immunity or healthier fish making it are gone.
(the store should be cheni-free within a couple of days, with the only surviving fish there being that erromyzon...if I go back with the camera, I'll post his current picture -- it is something that has to be seen to be believed.)
Almost no new information: no patches on the fish dead at the store, nothing seen on autopsy, the only strange thing was that one fish had pretty bloody mouth --- does it mean anything?
I actually find it very hard to believe that this is bacterial. The kill pattern (no symptoms, long incubation time, sudden kill) are more consistent with large parasites -- except I cannot find and trace of them.
Patchy disease may well be not the only thing involved and in effect was just a false lead.....if we forget about it, just what other symptomless hillstream killer disease were seen? Is there anything like an internal/external parasite that is hard to detect and that is not a tapeworm/roundworm?
anyway, crazy ideas are still quite welcome....with the big kill seen at the store, my chenis probably have less than a week unless something is done
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Jim Powers
- Posts: 5208
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:15 pm
- Location: Bloomington, Indiana
Jim,
I understand all this; I've been in uncharted waters for the last three months.
It was not very hard to notice that your description of the "patchy" thing only partially matches what I see here; and it is quite obvious that the "patchy" disease is simply a symptom, not a disease (cf. skinny "disease").
I also understand that these waters are seriously poisoned, and that an answer at this point is not likely to help my fish. Nonetheless, it is perhaps worthwhile to try to get as much information out of this as one can. It is fully possible that buried somewhere is your (or someone else's experience, or perhaps even in what I saw) are some pieces of information which are quite relevant.
I wish there was a way to compare notes somehow.
I understand all this; I've been in uncharted waters for the last three months.
It was not very hard to notice that your description of the "patchy" thing only partially matches what I see here; and it is quite obvious that the "patchy" disease is simply a symptom, not a disease (cf. skinny "disease").
I also understand that these waters are seriously poisoned, and that an answer at this point is not likely to help my fish. Nonetheless, it is perhaps worthwhile to try to get as much information out of this as one can. It is fully possible that buried somewhere is your (or someone else's experience, or perhaps even in what I saw) are some pieces of information which are quite relevant.
I wish there was a way to compare notes somehow.
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Jim Powers
- Posts: 5208
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:15 pm
- Location: Bloomington, Indiana
Yes, it is very important to try to figure this out as it is likely not the last time this type of ailment will effect someone's hillstreams. What is troublesome and confusing is the fact that symptoms are generally lacking, death occurs quickly and nothing seems to work.
The only thing that I can think of other than what I have mentioned is the use of a UV sterilizer. However, that may only help fish that have not contracted whatever this is. I wish I could think of more, but unfortunately, I have run out of suggestions. Hopefully, someone else will have some.
The only thing that I can think of other than what I have mentioned is the use of a UV sterilizer. However, that may only help fish that have not contracted whatever this is. I wish I could think of more, but unfortunately, I have run out of suggestions. Hopefully, someone else will have some.
I don't think that UV will do anything. The tank at the lfs is under UV and it enjoyed faster casualties than I have here. I do have a UV hooked up to the tank, but the tank is not sufficiently long running to risk turning it on.
It is also apparently not just a hillstream disease -- I just lost a rasbora (?!) -- again, no symptoms, and no symptoms on the remaining dither. This is perhaps an indication back toward bacteria, rather than parasites.
Real darn. I was hoping it was limited to sucker-type loaches, I guess not, and still no idea what it may be.
It is also apparently not just a hillstream disease -- I just lost a rasbora (?!) -- again, no symptoms, and no symptoms on the remaining dither. This is perhaps an indication back toward bacteria, rather than parasites.
Real darn. I was hoping it was limited to sucker-type loaches, I guess not, and still no idea what it may be.
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Emma Turner
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- Location: Peterborough, UK
- Contact:
Does the shop have any other species in the tanks with their affected hillstreams? If so, have they lost any other species there? Just wondering if it is actually affecting other types of fish, or whether the loss of your rasbora is from something different.mikev wrote:It is also apparently not just a hillstream disease -- I just lost a rasbora (?!) -- again, no symptoms, and no symptoms on the remaining dither. This is perhaps an indication back toward bacteria, rather than parasites.
Emma
East of the Sun, West of the Moon.
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