A passing question

[Ashleigh]

Im just wondering, any of those who have large groups of loaches, say 15 plus (Im refering to clown loaches in my situaton), has anyone ever found that there is always one individual that is say a little on the runty side.

I ask this as in my group of 23 (or about) there is always one individual that is not always the smallest, but certinally the one who sticks out the most-its not skinny, just thinner build, eats like a pig but still has that unhealthy look about it. I have lost 2 clowns over the past couple of years that have had this look, and there is always one that will replace it a few months on.

The fish are well fed-dried food on the morning and varied frozens in the evening, veggies twice a week-there is no shortage of food-always a bit leftover.
They are wormed on a regular basis once every 2 months or so with levacide. There is no bullying that I can see, the fish that turn out like 'this' are the younger smaller individuals no more than 2.5inches. They never argue amongst themselves.

So Im at a bit of a loss here, and to be quite frank don't intend losing yet another loach to this I have one who is starting to take on the appearance of the above described-suggestions anyone???


Anyone else seen this in their large groups-I hadn't seen it till I increased my group-weird Im at a loss.......


Ashleigh

[Emma Turner]

Hi Ashleigh,

I have 2 or 3 that are small (3"-4") and which have never really grown despite being in large well-maintained tanks all their lives. But I wouldn't describe them as being 'runty' because they look just like all the others (healthy), only on a smaller scale.

Is it always new additions that succumb to this, or are they the then smallest of the main established group?

Emma

[Ashleigh]

Hi Emma,

They are not the smallest, and have been in the group for quite some time, at least a year so they are well established in the group. I have not added any new clowns for some months now, and even so those that were the most recent are as healthy as ever

I have a few growing on in a seperate tank to be added in the future, possibly at the end of the summer but I feel a little off about adding them at all if this is the way things are going.

I was debating about removing the one who is starting to get like this now-but then if another takes its place like before its just like going around in circles and Il be removing fish constantly......

Edit-The fish in question will always pass away some many months later with no visable signs of an attack/being bullied, but its future is pretty much decided once it starts looking like this.

Il get a pic of the one Im talking about up within the next day or so-you can tell theres something not quite right there.


Ashleigh

[mickthefish]

i think it follws through with most of the botia's.
i bought 10 striata and 10 almorhae around six mths ago out of the two groups there is a vast difference in growth rates,
some of the almorhae are twice the size of the others and the striata are virtually the same.
piggy4 and i had a chat about this and came to near enough the same conclusions .
the almorhae that will get a reticulated pattern are the largest with the yoyo pattern being the smaller, and the striata's which were purchased from different shops,
some have a tan or brownish base pattern are the largest and the smaller have a dark base colour and almost black bars.

has anyone else noticed this?.

mick

[Diana]

Mick, I have several Yoyos that started with the distinct YOYO pattern, but one was not quite as easy to see. Somewhat reticulated rather than distinct letters. They all grew at the same rate, and have now all gone to the reticulated pattern, though I can still see the remnants of the YOYO pattern. It has sort of turned into #YYOYYO##. The one that has always been reticulated is not the largest of the group. The reticulations have gotten more varied. The whole group looks to be the same size if you see just one. When 2 or more are zipping around they still seem the same. The only way to tell is when they are quiet. The difference in size is negligible. There is probably more error in my estimate of their size. (Currently pushing 4") They have very rare quiet moments, and almost never when I can see them.
They were around 2", and not too fat (not skinny, though) when I bought them. I quarantined, but did not treat for parasites, wasting or any other issues. They did not get Ich. I have 4 of them.

[Ashleigh]

Well here are the photos of the loach I was talking about. Please excuse the awful quality-I have little time to myself at the moment so these were just a snap and upload.

The clown in the middle

Clown in the middle at the bottom

And this is what Im talking about-doen't look like a healthy clown to me



Ashleigh

[Barracuda518]

Maybe internal parasites are taking away all the nutrients, allowing it not to gain weight?

[Ashleigh]

As said before, all the fish are 'wormed' on a regular basis. It only happens to one individual at a time, that after a while passes away without any sign/reason why apart from the 'unhealthy look' and after a few months another loach will replace this one.
I shoud also mention there are yoyo and emperors in this tank, the yoyo are also in a large group-no sign of what Im seeing with the clowns amongst these species.


Ashleigh

[Ashleigh]

Anyone???? I don't really intend losing another loach to whatever this is.....

Do I remove the fish and see how that goes or what?

Suggestions welcomed

Ashleigh

[Tinman]

I have been fighting this for years. It is in the numbers possibly IMO. I too have little trouble with all but the last few Clowns in my group. They problems they have young possibly hurt the adult specimans as they mature and they lag in development and therefore look sickly compared to the group in general is my conclusion . These would not normally survive but given excellent parameters of our tanks they survive but not thrive. Yours is not clamped so I would not think it that bad as the bottom level or worst case of fish development in your tank.
I have been reducing the ppm of solids via peat moss pillows with some improvement in my group. I am down from 420 to 308 ppm solids. I belive the Clowns more succeptable to water parameters as other botia and show issues with the skin /scales/slime coat where the look of unhealthy seems to be located as weight is not ussually the issue till later in the problem. It so far seems unsolvable via anti parisite and salt treatments. I have held them over 90F for 21 days and treated with 3 rounds of levimosal plus 3 rounds of praziquantral and run a 36 watt UV too rule out most parasites and have none on other specie. I treated the entire tank this way.I too have one fall from the back of the herd every so often as you described and have been chasing a solution for years.
I actually keep the dried dead ones on a board to remind me the seriousness of this problem and to keep myself focused on a solution.
I have been trying to soften my water and reduce solids to solve this lately.This is where I hope to find the solution.
I would be curious to the water parameters where this is not an issue. I know the water on the island is hard as mine starts and we have the same issue. Does this happen to those elsewhere about the planet with soft water?

[Tinman]

Anyone???? I don't really intend losing another loach to whatever this is.....

Do I remove the fish and see how that goes or what?

Suggestions welcomed


I was writing when you posted Leave it in the tank I have not found this to be contagious. nor even blasting them with meds to help. There could be a parasite we have not killed or a bacteria on the slime coat besides my previous statement. These are my conclusions following my same issues. Which parasite could survive those treatments ? What bacteria could survive to do this and how to tell if this could be the issue?or whats in the water we do not filter they do not like(i.e. is this an issue on DI systems)?
I have asked this post before Ashleigh. We wish we knew something here but I don't think we do YET....

[Ashleigh]

Yet being the word

Thankyou Tinman for getting back to me, it is a relief in some way that this is not only apparent in my tank. As far as I know my tank sits at 0, 0, 10-20ppm (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate), pH stays stable between 6.8-7, hardness I have not checked for quite some time, I shall post it when I do.

Funny, this was never an issue when I had smaller groups (I have the 'adults' and 'young ones' seperate until a couple of years ago), its baffling

Ashleigh

[grizzlyone]

As mentioned a couple other places, it could just be Biology too.

Several threads talk about the stunting of fish in certain conditions, maybe as some critical mass depending on the tank, nature decides its time to thin out the herd. It could be a hormonal thing, or something missing from the environment that they are in that is present in the natural habitat.

In mammals sometimes there's a runt in the litter and no amount of care, nutrients or medicine can change that.


We've seen this in Hillstream breeding, one person can duplicate exactly the environment they come from and not have success, another throws them in a 10 gallon tank with a sponge filter and gets fry out the wazoo...

I think the fact that we care and wonder about this makes the difference.

Kevin